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  1. #1
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Leave

    http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=980

    What exactly does this mean?

  2. #2
    Colonel
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=980

    What exactly does this mean?
    Currently if someone wants to apply for say a weeks leave they will have to use seven days leave with this new proposal only five days will be used. If someone wanted to apply for say leave for a Friday and the following Monday they will have to use four days leave, new proposal two days leave. Leave cant be broken over a weekend period, Saturday and Sunday has to be taken off as leave even thought they will probably be off anyway.

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  4. #3
    C/S Tango_Charlie's Avatar
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    No more AH's?

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    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    That's the system we use and it is much better.

    Turns 4 weeks Leave into 5 and a half weeks Leave or in other words 28 days Leave into 38 days Leave.

    However I can't see you keeping your 'Rest Day' if this is introduced.

    I hope you do get the new system being proposed.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 21st November 2013 at 01:52.
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    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Naturally they introduce this system AFTER I leave........
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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  8. #6
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    That's what I taught and it seems fair.

    With regard to the max holidays, will it be the same for the NS?
    The change for new enterants is just wrong!

    Does the change of DF holidays mean that you not get public holidays off?

  9. #7
    C/S Tango_Charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    That's the system we use and it is much better.

    Turns 4 weeks Leave into 5 and a half weeks Leave or in other words 28 days Leave into 38 days Leave.

    However I can't see you keeping your 'Rest Day' if this is introduced.

    I hope you do get the new system being proposed.
    I'm just scared of change! dont know why, i'm not even that old.

    Did you get time taken off for good behaviour or something?

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  11. #8
    CQMS
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    Its just another cut

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  13. #9
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The rest day is protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Tango_Charlie View Post
    I'm just scared of change! dont know why, i'm not even that old.

    Did you get time taken off for good behaviour or something?

    Everyone is afraid of change it's natural



    Quote Originally Posted by holdfast View Post
    Its just another cut
    The leave week changing is actually an increase (that will probably be cut elsewhere)

    From the above it means that if you are away from Monday 1st and not due back until 0800 on Monday 7th, that used to be 7 days leave, now it will be 5 days leave and a weekend pass

  14. #10
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    From the above it means that if you are away from Monday 1st and not due back until 0800 on Monday 7th, that used to be 7 days leave, now it will be 5 days leave and a weekend pass
    why complicate the process? do away with 'weekend passes' and have Leave as Leave - if it covers a weekend then these are still Leave but don't come off the Leave entitlement, obviously.

    there is a chance for change here, make the most of it.
    RGJ

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  15. #11
    Private 3* Jungle's Avatar
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    Our leave system is like the British: we count only weekdays that are not statutory holidays. Weekends are free, but usually included on leave passes as weekend days, to avoid someone putting the member on duty in the middle of leave. COs are allowed to give up to 2 days of "short leave" every month. So we end up with leave passes for the upcoming holiday season that last 23 days, but use up only 6 days of annual leave.

    We get 20 days of annual leave for the first 4 years, then 25 during the 5th year of service. Then once we complete 28 years, we get 5 more days, for a total of 30.
    As a general rule, most of our troops get 3 weeks summer leave, 3 weeks Christmas leave, and a one-week Spring break in March. Some guys take less during the summer to use during hunting season.
    "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

    Never give up!!"

  16. #12
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    we are lucky, we get a minimum of 38 days leave per year regardless of rank or time served.

    in 2012 we had 45 days leave (9 weeks / 63 days in total including weekends) - the standard 38 plus 1 day for the Diamond Jubilee, 1 day for the Royal Wedding, and 5 days (1 week) for our work during the Olympics.

    a virtually unlimited number of weekends can also be taken as Leave where permissible, but Duty will always prevail and fairness enforced.

    we do not have any 'rest days' regardless of Duty, unless a shift system is implemented.

    one days Leave is also granted for every 9 days on Operations in addition to the above.

    in my opinion we have the fairest and least complicated Leave system of any Army i have encountered, and anyone basing their Leave model on ours would be wise.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

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    I think we need to look at the proposals , the context and use Homer's philosophy ( Simpson ) . The DOD ( Bart) want to do this as part of Crokepark Park 2 , therefore it will screw Homer ( us) , so we fight it tooth and nail and do the opposite ( Homers philosophy) .

    When members of the DF get paid and treated like the rest of the public service then maybe the bean counters can use a similar system of leave. It seems crazy , same leave regime for DF member as clerical worker in HSE ! Cancel the DF holiday for 1916..... Thank god the country was founded by soldiers and not the kind of clowns behind these proposals !

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  19. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Booted Man View Post
    I think we need to look at the proposals , the context and use Homer's philosophy ( Simpson ) . The DOD ( Bart) want to do this as part of Crokepark Park 2 , therefore it will screw Homer ( us) , so we fight it tooth and nail and do the opposite ( Homers philosophy) .

    When members of the DF get paid and treated like the rest of the public service then maybe the bean counters can use a similar system of leave. It seems crazy , same leave regime for DF member as clerical worker in HSE ! Cancel the DF holiday for 1916..... Thank god the country was founded by soldiers and not the kind of clowns behind these proposals !
    I agree, they are only trying to screw us, they can ram there new proposal.

  20. #15
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I agree, they are only trying to screw us, they can ram there new proposal.
    (a) As a member of the DF there is **** all you or your representitive body can do about it.

    (b) As members of the public service the governments have managed to turn the consensus of public opinion on us demonizing what was gained through toil and tears to gain some degree of equality in the work place.

    (c) Public service unions and representitive bodies have screwed over their members by creating criterion within certain lines of employment that are unjustifiable but were never normalized thus creating huge anomalies when it came down to scuitiny.

    (d) Ironies of Ironies, those who have the tools to hand to stop it all don't have the bollocks to make it all stop.
    Just visiting

  21. #16
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The DF holidays are because the DF don't get public holidays are they? With standardisation I assume they will ?

    Is resting off counted as leave?

    What about leave having returned from overseas?

    A reduction in leave for the NS (afloat) is wrong.

  22. #17
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    Watch the next move will be the MSA, because if you are on leave for the weekend. they maybe MSA needs to be looked at. pricks

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  24. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The DF holidays are because the DF don't get public holidays are they? With standardisation I assume they will ?

    Is resting off counted as leave?

    What about leave having returned from overseas?

    A reduction in leave for the NS (afloat) is wrong.

    Here is a list of the DF holidays:

    New Years day - 1st January
    Saint Patrick's Day - 17th March
    Good Friday
    Easter Monday
    May Day - first Monday in May
    1916 Commemoration Day - second Wednesday in May
    June Bank Holiday - first Monday in June
    1921 Truce - 11th July
    August Bank Holiday - first Monday in August
    Feast of the Assumption - 15th August
    October Bank Holiday - last Monday in October
    Christmas Day - 25th December
    Saint Stephen's Day - 26th December

    If you work any of these days you get a day in lieu.

    Resting off is not counted as leave.

    Overseas leave varies. On my last trip it was 21 days leave plus two travel days during the trip, them 30 days on return home. For every month overseas you loss one days annual leave.

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  26. #19
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Overseas leave varies. On my last trip it was 21 days leave plus two travel days during the trip, them 30 days on return home.
    how does that work pro-rata? i mean if a guy does lets say 4 months instead of 6 months on Operations (it can and does happen) - how is Leave worked out then (in particular the Post Operational Tour Leave (POTL))?

    we have a simple POTL pro-rata rate of 9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

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  27. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    how does that work pro-rata? i mean if a guy does lets say 4 months instead of 6 months on Operations (it can and does happen) - how is Leave worked out then (in particular the Post Operational Tour Leave (POTL))?
    Like I said overseas leave varies. Chad was 4 month trips, if I remember correctly I think it was six weeks leave on return home, there was no leave during the trip.

    9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave.
    That's shit.

  28. #21
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Like I said overseas leave varies. Chad was 4 month trips, if I remember correctly I think it was six weeks leave on return home, there was no leave during the trip.

    RoyalGreenJacket: "9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave"

    That's shit.
    but there must be a proportionate 'rate' at which this is accrued fairly? what if a guy does only 2 months of a 4 month tour? does he get half his entitlement? what if a guy serves only 5 weeks or 14 weeks out of a 4 month tour - what will he get? surely you as individuals should all know EXACTLY how your Leave is worked out and what you are entitled to - broad brush blanket figure are no use to anyone.

    if i am away 45 days i know i will get 5 days Leave (1 whole week), if i am away 53 days i still only get 5 days, but if i do 54 days on Ops then i get 6 days Leave (1 whole week plus one day) - it's a surefire way of knowing exactly how much Leave any of us are entitled to and it is very fair and totally proportionate.

    and how is 1 day of Leave for every 9 days on Operations 'shit'? the ONH lads earn 30 days Leave (including weekends - 4 weeks and 2 days) for a 6 month tour, our guys earn 20 days Leave (not including weekends - 4 weeks) - meaning your guys actually only get 2 days more Leave than us - however - your guys lose 1 days Annual Leave for every month overseas - therefore your Leave is now effectively only 22 days (3 weeks and 1 day) while ours is still nearly a week longer.

    also - your guys will have missed any Bank Holidays which occur whilst on tour - whereas we get ALL of ours back because they are included as days in our Annual Leave Entitlement - meaning we could have an extra 4 days on top of that.

    so we are better off by about 2 weeks Leave than our ONH counterparts for a 6 month tour, so if our POTL Leave is 'shit' then i sympathise with you as yours is absolutely abysmal.

    this is not a pi$$ing contest, it is a comparison of Leave and nothing else - ours is a modern massively researched system based on fairness and i have never heard one complaint about it and it is not under review - the ONH has a chance now to make a change and mirror our system or a proven system of another nation and improve on it where necessary, but one thing is clear - we get far more Leave in a much fairer package than most, and i really do hope for your sake that PDFORRA or whoever take a step in the right direction.

    if you honestly think our proportional rate of accruing Leave is 'shit' yet it gives us more Leave days than yours - then what do you honestly think of your current system?
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 24th November 2013 at 23:10.
    RGJ

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    The Rifles

  29. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    but there must be a proportionate 'rate' at which this is accrued fairly? what if a guy does only 2 months of a 4 month tour? does he get half his entitlement? what if a guy serves only 5 weeks or 14 weeks out of a 4 month tour - what will he get? surely you as individuals should all know EXACTLY how your Leave is worked out and what you are entitled to - broad brush blanket figure are no use to anyone.

    if i am away 45 days i know i will get 5 days Leave (1 whole week), if i am away 53 days i still only get 5 days, but if i do 54 days on Ops then i get 6 days Leave (1 whole week plus one day) - it's a surefire way of knowing exactly how much Leave any of us are entitled to and it is very fair and totally proportionate.

    and how is 1 day of Leave for every 9 days on Operations 'shit'? the ONH lads earn 30 days Leave (including weekends - 4 weeks and 2 days) for a 6 month tour, our guys earn 20 days Leave (not including weekends - 4 weeks) - meaning your guys actually only get 2 days more Leave than us - however - your guys lose 1 days Annual Leave for every month overseas - therefore your Leave is now effectively only 22 days (3 weeks and 1 day) while ours is still nearly a week longer.

    also - your guys will have missed any Bank Holidays which occur whilst on tour - whereas we get ALL of ours back because they are included as days in our Annual Leave Entitlement - meaning we could have an extra 4 days on top of that.

    so we are better off by about 2 weeks Leave than our ONH counterparts for a 6 month tour, so if our POTL Leave is 'shit' then i sympathise with you as yours is absolutely abysmal.

    this is not a pi$$ing contest, it is a comparison of Leave and nothing else - ours is a modern massively researched system based on fairness and i have never heard one complaint about it and it is not under review - the ONH has a chance now to make a change and mirror our system or a proven system of another nation and improve on it where necessary, but one thing is clear - we get far more Leave in a much fairer package than most, and i really do hope for your sake that PDFORRA or whoever take a step in the right direction.

    if you honestly think our proportional rate of accruing Leave is 'shit' yet it gives us more Leave days than yours - then what do you honestly think of your current system?
    No number of leave days are deducted from overseas leave. Annual leave is separate.
    IF a DF holiday is worked a day in lieu is giving.

    You seem to pick and choose what you like to compare and fiddle the facts. You asked how much leave was given for a four month trip so go compare that or the leave during a trip.
    If its not a pissing contest to you why did you bother make comparisons, no one asked, the question and this thread as a whole is about DF leave.

  30. #23
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    i am not picking and choosing - you are:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes
    No number of leave days are deducted from overseas leave.
    but you also said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes
    For every month overseas you lose one days annual leave.
    Leave is Leave - you are either gaining or losing days - and when you take both into account - ours is still a much more generous and fairer system that you and all members of ONH would benefit from if implemented.

    like i said - no pissing competition but i am talking about something i know about and how it is worked out, which is something you seem to know very little about other than what you are told you will be given as a result of an Overseas tour - as you still could not tell me what any of the examples i gave you would work out as.

    i merely pointed out and explained in detail a fairer system of Leave that PDFORRA seem to be moving towards that is similar to ours, but you came on here and said our rate of accruing Leave while on Operations was 'shit' despite you not even knowing the rate at which your own Leave for Overseas service is accrued!

    and the fact that you actually said yourself you lose one day of Annual Leave every month you serve Overseas means you get a worse deal than us - so i ask you again, if our system is 'shit' yet every man knows know exactly what he is entitled to at any moment in time, and we get more Leave as a result, what would you describe yours as?

    if you can't support your criticism or back it up then don't bother criticising.

    i genuinely do hope you guys get a better and fairer Leave system as a result of the next change.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 25th November 2013 at 22:30.
    RGJ

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  31. #24
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    and the fact that you actually said yourself you lose one day of Annual Leave every month you serve Overseas means you get a worse deal than us
    They may lose a day of annual leave but they gain a week of post overseas leave!

  32. #25
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    They may lose a day of annual leave but they gain a week of post overseas leave!
    so they cancel each other out and you are still no better off - well that's the best example i've seen of how complex the ONH Leave system is and how it needs to be revised.

    just grant days Leave and have a rate of accrual to generate more Leave - as i said - Leave is Leave just keep it simple and fair - the more time you do away - the more Leave you get, likewise the less time you do away - the less Leave you get.

    everyman should always know exactly what he is entitled to and not rely on a blanket figure - because there will be men who do more days and men who do less days on every Overseas Operation.

    i am saying your Leave system is complex because of the above and nobody seems to know how it is accrued, not very generous because you only get 28 days annual leave including weekends, and not fair either as not everyone deploys and returns on the same day yet they all seem to get a blanket amount.

    this is a forum talk about these things and if we don't talk about things then it's hard to know what is a good deal and what isn't, so hopefully you will realise that if you thought you are getting a good deal at the moment then you are way off the mark compared to other nations, and i think PDFORRA are right to seek amendments.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 25th November 2013 at 23:49.
    RGJ

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