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Thread: Leave

  1. #26
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    so they cancel each other out and you are still no better off - well that's the best example i've seen of how complex the ONH Leave system is and how it needs to be revised.

    just grant days Leave and have a rate of accrual to generate more Leave - as i said - Leave is Leave just keep it simple and fair - the more time you do away - the more Leave you get, likewise the less time you do away - the less Leave you get.

    everyman should always know exactly what he is entitled to and not rely on a blanket figure - because there will be men who do more days and men who do less days on every Overseas Operation.

    i am saying your Leave system is complex because of the above and nobody seems to know how it is accrued, not very generous because you only get 28 days annual leave including weekends, and not fair either as not everyone deploys and returns on the same day yet they all seem to get a blanket amount.

    this is a forum talk about these things and if we don't talk about things then it's hard to know what is a good deal and what isn't, so hopefully you will realise that if you thought you are getting a good deal at the moment then you are way off the mark compared to other nations, and i think PDFORRA are right to seek amendments.
    I missed out a word or 2 there. It should read:

    For every day of annual leave lost they gain about 7 days.

    The DF doesn't generally return people from operational tours for courses or because they are due to take up a staff appointment. The only reason they will come home would be leave (if granted by the mission / compassionate), medical reasons or discipline reasons.
    Last edited by DeV; 26th November 2013 at 00:32.

  2. #27
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    who said anything about sending lads home for courses or staff jobs? I don't think any army would do that.

    but even for the reasons you stated above Leave must be proportionate and fair. there are lads who go Overseas on Advance Party who usually end up on Rear Party too who tend to spend a few more weeks away than most and their Leave should also be proportionate.

    so Dev - you are saying that for every day of Annual Leave lost a soldier will gain 7 days post tour Leave.

    and Rhodes reckons that for every month a soldier is away he loses a day of Annual Leave - meaning that by your figures he would get 42 days Leave after every tour and not the 30 stated by Rhodes.

    the figures don't add up at all.

    any lad I know in ONH who returned from the Leb or elsewhere usually got about 4 weeks Leave like Rhodes said, not 7 like you are saying.

    I can see why there may be changes afoot to make things hopefully fairer, clearer and less complicated than they obviously currently are.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 26th November 2013 at 01:54.
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  3. #28
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    See post 2

    Even if it is 4 weeks post tour leave for 6 months, you may loose 6 days but you gain 28 days, a net gain of 22 days.

    The British Army send officers back to the UK from Afghanistan when they are due to take up a new appointment / attend staff courses. There are plenty of examples in numerous books.

  4. #29
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    PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.

    With regards overseas return leave, you get 30 days. If you do 2months you get 30days. If you do 1 yearnyou get 30 days. This is an automatic lesve entitlement that cannot be cancelled (unless there is a state of emergency when all bets are off).

    The DF leave is very simple. You start with X leave. You can carry over Y days and if you go overseas you lose Z days per konth (fluctuates by rank)

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  6. #30
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    See post 2

    Even if it is 4 weeks post tour leave for 6 months, you may loose 6 days but you gain 28 days, a net gain of 22 days.
    So at the ONH 'rate' of accruing Leave while overseas for a 6 month tour you gain a net of 22 days Leave which equates to 3 weeks and one day (including weekends in your current system), whereas with our system and that which is being proposed by PDFORRA he would earn a net of 20 days which is 4 weeks (we do not included weekends in our system) - so we are 1 whole week better off immediately and we do not lose any Annual Leave as a result of Overseas service.

    so I find it difficult to see how Rhodes can say our system is 'shit' when it is far better that what he is entitled to.

    I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee Rhodes and realise that you aren't getting such a good deal compared to your counterparts from other nations, and if PDFORRA are successful in excluding weekends from your Leave entitlement then you will be some way to gaining a more generous Leave entitlement.

    so Rhodes it's an interesting claim that you make, so our Leave system that you reckon is 'shit' - is it shit because it actually gives us more time off than your own, or is just 'shit' because of some other reason?
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 26th November 2013 at 10:12.
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    The weekend issue is a red herring. I can probably count the amount of leave I have granted people where they took a weekend that they didnt need to. In effect if you use your leave properly you will have 5.5weeks annual leave plus a potential carry over which varies by rank

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.
    Did someone really say that?

  9. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge Magnet View Post
    Did someone really say that?
    Yip and he is now at the highest levels within the civil service with an axe to grind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF....

    .....Yip and he is now at the highest levels within the civil service with an axe to grind.
    Wow.

    Is that on record somewhere? Is this the same chap who used to be in the Civil Defence?

  11. #35
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.

    With regards overseas return leave, you get 30 days. If you do 2months you get 30days. If you do 1 yearnyou get 30 days. This is an automatic lesve entitlement that cannot be cancelled (unless there is a state of emergency when all bets are off).

    The DF leave is very simple. You start with X leave. You can carry over Y days and if you go overseas you lose Z days per konth (fluctuates by rank)
    it's unfortunate someone at the top is applying Leave in this manner, because that's the best example i have seen of how unfair and disproportionate the current Leave system is. a fairer system would be the less you serve Overseas the less Leave you earn, the more you serve Overseas the more Leave you earn.

    if you applied a similar system to ours and that proposed by PDFORRA in your example - then you would get the following:

    4 months = 13 days Leave = 2 weeks and 3 days Leave
    6 months = 20 days Leave = 4 weeks Leave
    12months = 40 days Leave = 8 weeks Leave

    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    The weekend issue is a red herring. I can probably count the amount of leave I have granted people where they took a weekend that they didnt need to. In effect if you use your leave properly you will have 5.5weeks annual leave plus a potential carry over which varies by rank
    not really - because if you need to take it - then you have to take it, i.e. - if you want to go away on holiday for lets say 4 weeks - you would need to use all of your 28 day entitlement giving you just 4 weeks off and none remaining for the year, whereas in a system that does not include weekends you would only use 20 days of your Leave and still have another week and a half off aswell as the 4 you just took.

    as for the current Leave system being simple when it involves losing a certain amount of Annual Leave based on time Overseas dependent on Rank, and having to include weekends as part of - i don't see how it is. a far simpler system for example would be:

    regardless of rank or time served - you ALL get 38 days Leave per year, if you go on tour you will get more (at a rate of 1 day extra for 9 days away), and weekends are never included as Leave.

    job done.

    i really cannot see how some of you seem to think the current Leave system in the ONH is fair, proportionate, generous or simple (and a better system is 'shit') when a much fairer, more proportionate, more generous and far less complicated Leave system is easily achieved and hopefully PDFORRA are taking a step in the right direction to implement it.

    i am highlighting what can be achieved and is already out there elsewhere (and in most cases would benefit you greatly), i am comparing a Leave system, not an army or nation.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 26th November 2013 at 11:10.
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  12. #36
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    The proposed amendment is 20days, no weekends. So it is a max of 4weeks. The current system allows over a week and a half more so is fairer.

    It is certainly not the case you are making to give people more leave. If there is a leave adjustment then people will only lose out and not gain.

    The comment I refer to was referenced in a speach by the Gen Sec of RACO, the original comment was made somewhere within the last 5 years but I have neither time nor interest in searching for it

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  14. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    The proposed amendment is 20days....
    ... which, funnily enough, is the Irish statutory leave entitlement
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  15. #38
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    in that respect midnight oil then you may infact be disadvantaged, i thought (probably wrongly) they were aiming for 28 days (not 20) and NOT including weekends.

    that would not be good.

    however i still think the whole system should be fairer, more proportionate, more generous and less complicated as highlighted previously.
    RGJ

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  16. #39
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.

    With regards overseas return leave, you get 30 days. If you do 2months you get 30days. If you do 1 yearnyou get 30 days. This is an automatic lesve entitlement that cannot be cancelled (unless there is a state of emergency when all bets are off).

    The DF leave is very simple. You start with X leave. You can carry over Y days and if you go overseas you lose Z days per konth (fluctuates by rank)
    In that case:
    4 month tour = lose 4 days = net gain 26 days
    6 month tour = lose 6 days = net gain 24 days
    12 month tour = lose 12 days = net gain 18 days

    Am I right?

    If you take / are allowed leave during tour does that come out of annual leave?

  17. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    In that case:
    4 month tour = lose 4 days = net gain 26 days
    6 month tour = lose 6 days = net gain 24 days
    12 month tour = lose 12 days = net gain 18 days

    Am I right?

    If you take / are allowed leave during tour does that come out of annual leave?

    Well, put it to you like this Dev, anytime I've been overseas with the job, and took leave while away, it comes out of my annual entitlement
    (just one bucket of hours for leave purposes, presumably much like any other job)

    I'd be surprised if the PDF was any different
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  18. #41
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    In that case:
    4 month tour = lose 4 days = net gain 26 days
    6 month tour = lose 6 days = net gain 24 days
    12 month tour = lose 12 days = net gain 18 days

    Am I right?

    If you take / are allowed leave during tour does that come out of annual leave?
    what are you referring to here? [the word 'The' removed after Goldie pointing out I used it in error] ONH don't have an equivalent proportionate system.

    in our system - R&R (Leave taken during an Operational Tour) is granted in addition to Annual Leave.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 26th November 2013 at 15:02.
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  19. #42
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    There is no "The" in your use of ONH. It makes as much sense as saying ATM Machine.

  20. #43
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    There is no "The" in your use of ONH.
    since edited and removed, apologies for any distress this may have caused.
    RGJ

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    FWIW officers lose much more than one day a month when returning from overseas. Officers lose one day for every day of leave granted in the mission area. So say you get 18days in UNIFIL then reduce your annual leave allowance by 18days upon return home.

    Suddenly a man losing 6days on return home doesnt look quite so bad

  22. #45
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    FWIW officers lose much more than one day a month when returning from overseas. Officers lose one day for every day of leave granted in the mission area. So say you get 18days in UNIFIL then reduce your annual leave allowance by 18days upon return home.

    Suddenly a man losing 6days on return home doesnt look quite so bad
    why be penalised for serving Overseas? they should be gaining Leave, not losing it.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 26th November 2013 at 15:02.
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    I can only assume it was plea bargained away for something else in a round of negotiations. Given the frequency of officers serving overseas it is hardly a pressing concern.

  24. #47
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    I can only assume it was plea bargained away for something else in a round of negotiations. Given the frequency of officers serving overseas it is hardly a pressing concern.
    it's a man's Leave we are talking about - of course it is a pressing concern.

    as i said earlier - any Leave system should be fair.
    RGJ

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    It is a fair system. Given that it is not something that is not something discussed at work / in the mess testifies that no one has any issues with the current leave system for officers. There are more differences but I am not going into them here.

    I dont care what the BA or the French or the Fire Brigade have as it is of no consequence to me, just like my leave has no bearing on you. I personally have no issues with my current leave entitlements. Like most officers and many many NCOs and Men I end up losing leave every year as I just cannot justify taking it and / or end up having to do 3 weeks work if I take 3 weeks leave so if you are able to take 7 weeks off every year then I wonder what the hell you do every day if your unit can manage without you for nearly two months a year

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  27. #49
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    Also losing a handful of days every 4years is hardly going to kill anyone. I actually do know why it changed and we are better off for it both financially and otherwise

  28. #50
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    it's not going to kill anyone but it is going to deny them of Leave which in a fair system they would be entitled to.

    fcuking with someones Leave and being so flippant about it not good, and i can't see it being tolerated in many organisations like it seems to be here.
    RGJ

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