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  • #16
    The DF holidays are because the DF don't get public holidays are they? With standardisation I assume they will ?

    Is resting off counted as leave?

    What about leave having returned from overseas?

    A reduction in leave for the NS (afloat) is wrong.

    Comment


    • #17
      Watch the next move will be the MSA, because if you are on leave for the weekend. they maybe MSA needs to be looked at. pricks

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        The DF holidays are because the DF don't get public holidays are they? With standardisation I assume they will ?

        Is resting off counted as leave?

        What about leave having returned from overseas?

        A reduction in leave for the NS (afloat) is wrong.

        Here is a list of the DF holidays:

        New Years day - 1st January
        Saint Patrick's Day - 17th March
        Good Friday
        Easter Monday
        May Day - first Monday in May
        1916 Commemoration Day - second Wednesday in May
        June Bank Holiday - first Monday in June
        1921 Truce - 11th July
        August Bank Holiday - first Monday in August
        Feast of the Assumption - 15th August
        October Bank Holiday - last Monday in October
        Christmas Day - 25th December
        Saint Stephen's Day - 26th December

        If you work any of these days you get a day in lieu.

        Resting off is not counted as leave.

        Overseas leave varies. On my last trip it was 21 days leave plus two travel days during the trip, them 30 days on return home. For every month overseas you loss one days annual leave.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
          Overseas leave varies. On my last trip it was 21 days leave plus two travel days during the trip, them 30 days on return home.
          how does that work pro-rata? i mean if a guy does lets say 4 months instead of 6 months on Operations (it can and does happen) - how is Leave worked out then (in particular the Post Operational Tour Leave (POTL))?

          we have a simple POTL pro-rata rate of 9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave.
          RGJ

          ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

          The Rifles

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
            how does that work pro-rata? i mean if a guy does lets say 4 months instead of 6 months on Operations (it can and does happen) - how is Leave worked out then (in particular the Post Operational Tour Leave (POTL))?
            Like I said overseas leave varies. Chad was 4 month trips, if I remember correctly I think it was six weeks leave on return home, there was no leave during the trip.

            9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave.
            That's shit.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
              Like I said overseas leave varies. Chad was 4 month trips, if I remember correctly I think it was six weeks leave on return home, there was no leave during the trip.

              RoyalGreenJacket: "9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave"

              That's shit.
              but there must be a proportionate 'rate' at which this is accrued fairly? what if a guy does only 2 months of a 4 month tour? does he get half his entitlement? what if a guy serves only 5 weeks or 14 weeks out of a 4 month tour - what will he get? surely you as individuals should all know EXACTLY how your Leave is worked out and what you are entitled to - broad brush blanket figure are no use to anyone.

              if i am away 45 days i know i will get 5 days Leave (1 whole week), if i am away 53 days i still only get 5 days, but if i do 54 days on Ops then i get 6 days Leave (1 whole week plus one day) - it's a surefire way of knowing exactly how much Leave any of us are entitled to and it is very fair and totally proportionate.

              and how is 1 day of Leave for every 9 days on Operations 'shit'? the ONH lads earn 30 days Leave (including weekends - 4 weeks and 2 days) for a 6 month tour, our guys earn 20 days Leave (not including weekends - 4 weeks) - meaning your guys actually only get 2 days more Leave than us - however - your guys lose 1 days Annual Leave for every month overseas - therefore your Leave is now effectively only 22 days (3 weeks and 1 day) while ours is still nearly a week longer.

              also - your guys will have missed any Bank Holidays which occur whilst on tour - whereas we get ALL of ours back because they are included as days in our Annual Leave Entitlement - meaning we could have an extra 4 days on top of that.

              so we are better off by about 2 weeks Leave than our ONH counterparts for a 6 month tour, so if our POTL Leave is 'shit' then i sympathise with you as yours is absolutely abysmal.

              this is not a pi$$ing contest, it is a comparison of Leave and nothing else - ours is a modern massively researched system based on fairness and i have never heard one complaint about it and it is not under review - the ONH has a chance now to make a change and mirror our system or a proven system of another nation and improve on it where necessary, but one thing is clear - we get far more Leave in a much fairer package than most, and i really do hope for your sake that PDFORRA or whoever take a step in the right direction.

              if you honestly think our proportional rate of accruing Leave is 'shit' yet it gives us more Leave days than yours - then what do you honestly think of your current system?
              Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 24 November 2013, 23:10.
              RGJ

              ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

              The Rifles

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                but there must be a proportionate 'rate' at which this is accrued fairly? what if a guy does only 2 months of a 4 month tour? does he get half his entitlement? what if a guy serves only 5 weeks or 14 weeks out of a 4 month tour - what will he get? surely you as individuals should all know EXACTLY how your Leave is worked out and what you are entitled to - broad brush blanket figure are no use to anyone.

                if i am away 45 days i know i will get 5 days Leave (1 whole week), if i am away 53 days i still only get 5 days, but if i do 54 days on Ops then i get 6 days Leave (1 whole week plus one day) - it's a surefire way of knowing exactly how much Leave any of us are entitled to and it is very fair and totally proportionate.

                and how is 1 day of Leave for every 9 days on Operations 'shit'? the ONH lads earn 30 days Leave (including weekends - 4 weeks and 2 days) for a 6 month tour, our guys earn 20 days Leave (not including weekends - 4 weeks) - meaning your guys actually only get 2 days more Leave than us - however - your guys lose 1 days Annual Leave for every month overseas - therefore your Leave is now effectively only 22 days (3 weeks and 1 day) while ours is still nearly a week longer.

                also - your guys will have missed any Bank Holidays which occur whilst on tour - whereas we get ALL of ours back because they are included as days in our Annual Leave Entitlement - meaning we could have an extra 4 days on top of that.

                so we are better off by about 2 weeks Leave than our ONH counterparts for a 6 month tour, so if our POTL Leave is 'shit' then i sympathise with you as yours is absolutely abysmal.

                this is not a pi$$ing contest, it is a comparison of Leave and nothing else - ours is a modern massively researched system based on fairness and i have never heard one complaint about it and it is not under review - the ONH has a chance now to make a change and mirror our system or a proven system of another nation and improve on it where necessary, but one thing is clear - we get far more Leave in a much fairer package than most, and i really do hope for your sake that PDFORRA or whoever take a step in the right direction.

                if you honestly think our proportional rate of accruing Leave is 'shit' yet it gives us more Leave days than yours - then what do you honestly think of your current system?
                No number of leave days are deducted from overseas leave. Annual leave is separate.
                IF a DF holiday is worked a day in lieu is giving.

                You seem to pick and choose what you like to compare and fiddle the facts. You asked how much leave was given for a four month trip so go compare that or the leave during a trip.
                If its not a pissing contest to you why did you bother make comparisons, no one asked, the question and this thread as a whole is about DF leave.

                Comment


                • #23
                  i am not picking and choosing - you are:

                  Originally posted by Rhodes
                  No number of leave days are deducted from overseas leave.
                  but you also said:

                  Originally posted by Rhodes
                  For every month overseas you lose one days annual leave.
                  Leave is Leave - you are either gaining or losing days - and when you take both into account - ours is still a much more generous and fairer system that you and all members of ONH would benefit from if implemented.

                  like i said - no pissing competition but i am talking about something i know about and how it is worked out, which is something you seem to know very little about other than what you are told you will be given as a result of an Overseas tour - as you still could not tell me what any of the examples i gave you would work out as.

                  i merely pointed out and explained in detail a fairer system of Leave that PDFORRA seem to be moving towards that is similar to ours, but you came on here and said our rate of accruing Leave while on Operations was 'shit' despite you not even knowing the rate at which your own Leave for Overseas service is accrued!

                  and the fact that you actually said yourself you lose one day of Annual Leave every month you serve Overseas means you get a worse deal than us - so i ask you again, if our system is 'shit' yet every man knows know exactly what he is entitled to at any moment in time, and we get more Leave as a result, what would you describe yours as?

                  if you can't support your criticism or back it up then don't bother criticising.

                  i genuinely do hope you guys get a better and fairer Leave system as a result of the next change.
                  Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 25 November 2013, 22:30.
                  RGJ

                  ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                  The Rifles

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                    and the fact that you actually said yourself you lose one day of Annual Leave every month you serve Overseas means you get a worse deal than us
                    They may lose a day of annual leave but they gain a week of post overseas leave!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      They may lose a day of annual leave but they gain a week of post overseas leave!
                      so they cancel each other out and you are still no better off - well that's the best example i've seen of how complex the ONH Leave system is and how it needs to be revised.

                      just grant days Leave and have a rate of accrual to generate more Leave - as i said - Leave is Leave just keep it simple and fair - the more time you do away - the more Leave you get, likewise the less time you do away - the less Leave you get.

                      everyman should always know exactly what he is entitled to and not rely on a blanket figure - because there will be men who do more days and men who do less days on every Overseas Operation.

                      i am saying your Leave system is complex because of the above and nobody seems to know how it is accrued, not very generous because you only get 28 days annual leave including weekends, and not fair either as not everyone deploys and returns on the same day yet they all seem to get a blanket amount.

                      this is a forum talk about these things and if we don't talk about things then it's hard to know what is a good deal and what isn't, so hopefully you will realise that if you thought you are getting a good deal at the moment then you are way off the mark compared to other nations, and i think PDFORRA are right to seek amendments.
                      Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 25 November 2013, 23:49.
                      RGJ

                      ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                      The Rifles

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                        so they cancel each other out and you are still no better off - well that's the best example i've seen of how complex the ONH Leave system is and how it needs to be revised.

                        just grant days Leave and have a rate of accrual to generate more Leave - as i said - Leave is Leave just keep it simple and fair - the more time you do away - the more Leave you get, likewise the less time you do away - the less Leave you get.

                        everyman should always know exactly what he is entitled to and not rely on a blanket figure - because there will be men who do more days and men who do less days on every Overseas Operation.

                        i am saying your Leave system is complex because of the above and nobody seems to know how it is accrued, not very generous because you only get 28 days annual leave including weekends, and not fair either as not everyone deploys and returns on the same day yet they all seem to get a blanket amount.

                        this is a forum talk about these things and if we don't talk about things then it's hard to know what is a good deal and what isn't, so hopefully you will realise that if you thought you are getting a good deal at the moment then you are way off the mark compared to other nations, and i think PDFORRA are right to seek amendments.
                        I missed out a word or 2 there. It should read:

                        For every day of annual leave lost they gain about 7 days.

                        The DF doesn't generally return people from operational tours for courses or because they are due to take up a staff appointment. The only reason they will come home would be leave (if granted by the mission / compassionate), medical reasons or discipline reasons.
                        Last edited by DeV; 26 November 2013, 00:32.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          who said anything about sending lads home for courses or staff jobs? I don't think any army would do that.

                          but even for the reasons you stated above Leave must be proportionate and fair. there are lads who go Overseas on Advance Party who usually end up on Rear Party too who tend to spend a few more weeks away than most and their Leave should also be proportionate.

                          so Dev - you are saying that for every day of Annual Leave lost a soldier will gain 7 days post tour Leave.

                          and Rhodes reckons that for every month a soldier is away he loses a day of Annual Leave - meaning that by your figures he would get 42 days Leave after every tour and not the 30 stated by Rhodes.

                          the figures don't add up at all.

                          any lad I know in ONH who returned from the Leb or elsewhere usually got about 4 weeks Leave like Rhodes said, not 7 like you are saying.

                          I can see why there may be changes afoot to make things hopefully fairer, clearer and less complicated than they obviously currently are.
                          Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 26 November 2013, 01:54.
                          RGJ

                          ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                          The Rifles

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            See post 2

                            Even if it is 4 weeks post tour leave for 6 months, you may loose 6 days but you gain 28 days, a net gain of 22 days.

                            The British Army send officers back to the UK from Afghanistan when they are due to take up a new appointment / attend staff courses. There are plenty of examples in numerous books.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.

                              With regards overseas return leave, you get 30 days. If you do 2months you get 30days. If you do 1 yearnyou get 30 days. This is an automatic lesve entitlement that cannot be cancelled (unless there is a state of emergency when all bets are off).

                              The DF leave is very simple. You start with X leave. You can carry over Y days and if you go overseas you lose Z days per konth (fluctuates by rank)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                See post 2

                                Even if it is 4 weeks post tour leave for 6 months, you may loose 6 days but you gain 28 days, a net gain of 22 days.
                                So at the ONH 'rate' of accruing Leave while overseas for a 6 month tour you gain a net of 22 days Leave which equates to 3 weeks and one day (including weekends in your current system), whereas with our system and that which is being proposed by PDFORRA he would earn a net of 20 days which is 4 weeks (we do not included weekends in our system) - so we are 1 whole week better off immediately and we do not lose any Annual Leave as a result of Overseas service.

                                so I find it difficult to see how Rhodes can say our system is 'shit' when it is far better that what he is entitled to.

                                I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee Rhodes and realise that you aren't getting such a good deal compared to your counterparts from other nations, and if PDFORRA are successful in excluding weekends from your Leave entitlement then you will be some way to gaining a more generous Leave entitlement.

                                so Rhodes it's an interesting claim that you make, so our Leave system that you reckon is 'shit' - is it shit because it actually gives us more time off than your own, or is just 'shit' because of some other reason?
                                Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 26 November 2013, 10:12.
                                RGJ

                                ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                                The Rifles

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