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AgustaWestland AW139

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  • #16
    yep.not invented here syndrome. reinventing the wheel since 1922.....give the Army their own helis and let them off.

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    • #17
      Everything of course boils down to trust and yes you are prob correct in saying the AC trust the ARW because they do work close together, gaining that habitual association/trust/mutual understanding. Do the larger formations keep their LPCs and HHI's current NO. In aviation we also look at the worst case and therefore the lowest common denominator, in this case you used a NCO opening a door. Like pilots there are good and bad NCO's and all it takes is for one to make a small mistake when opening a door to either do damage or get someone hurt. In every Air Arm for helicopter operations you will always have someone correctly trained for door operations as it's not just about opening a door, it's about SA and safety. Take a night landing, said NCO has no comms with the rear crew because the Army haven't purchased the integrated system, he can't see the rear crew because lights are off (NVG insertion), how does he know when to open the door, how does he know when to dispatch troops, maybe its a hover dispatch etc etc etc.

      The AC wants to operate with the Army, the crews love it. However the Army doesn't understand that you can't just decide to throw together a exercise, add helicopter (so they tick the box and it looks good!) but don't have people current and experienced to assist. Units that do take heli Ops seriously like the ARW do get treated differently because they put the timing and effort in. So the fault is not with the AC but with the bigger units. For any units with different skill sets to operate together there HAS to be Habitual association.

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      • #18
        Then the problem lies with timing, availability, manpower, access to airframes (a lot of drills can be done on a cold airframe in the hangar--repetitive drills is one thing the DF does well, given that it's the basis for all military training), education (here's a suggestion-go to the units and do dummy drills with simulators instead of moaning that the Army don't come to you), currency (the Army manages to keep a lot of other things licenses and ratings current so doing this is not beyond them). Also, appoint an Air Corps liaison person in EVERY Army Bn so that one voice does all the communicating and make sure that he or she has an oppo in the Don that they can contact for heli training. If heli ops is not integrated into infantry training, then make it so. I understand it is already part of the Standard NCO's course so merge it downwards and get more corporals and privates trained up. This shit isn't difficult; thousands of people do it worldwide everyday, in tougher conditions than grassy fields in Ireland, so it's not undoable.

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        • #19
          Would the issue not be availability of hours?

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          • #20
            A lot of the drills can be done with static equipment or simple fixed-base simulators or even rejuvenated derelict hulls. Flying around is really only a small part of helicopter work, as far as the human cargo is concerned....the ARW are more able to focus on specific training than the greater mass of the Army, who have plenty of other stuff going on. I'll bet every unit is up to it's eyes in 1916 stuff and has precious little time for actual training on other people's aircraft. As for landing site drills and behaviour, most of that tends to stick in the mind and a simple refresher course can top up the information bank. It can be done in any barracks or open space so travelling to the Don is not necessary.

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            • #21
              in a ditty that may amuse(?), i - and the rest of the Army - got an email last month to let us know that there was more helicopter availability than we are using, and could we please put more bids in to the tasking cell...

              i had a lovely trip last week up the west coast of Scotland, we went island hopping. weather was gin clear with snow on the mountains - we even saw some whales near Colonsay.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                A lot of the drills can be done with static equipment or simple fixed-base simulators or even rejuvenated derelict hulls. Flying around is really only a small part of helicopter work, as far as the human cargo is concerned....the ARW are more able to focus on specific training than the greater mass of the Army, who have plenty of other stuff going on. I'll bet every unit is up to it's eyes in 1916 stuff and has precious little time for actual training on other people's aircraft. As for landing site drills and behaviour, most of that tends to stick in the mind and a simple refresher course can top up the information bank. It can be done in any barracks or open space so travelling to the Don is not necessary.
                It would not be hard or particularly expensive to knock up a couple of ply mock-ups of the passenger compartment and the exit doors for every barracks especially as there are now so few barracks.
                "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                Illegitimi non carborundum

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Turkey View Post
                  It would not be hard or particularly expensive to knock up a couple of ply mock-ups of the passenger compartment and the exit doors for every barracks especially as there are now so few barracks.
                  There is a HUET simulator in Cork. It isn't always in the water, upside down.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                    There is a HUET simulator in Cork. It isn't always in the water, upside down.
                    Good point, wasn't there supposed to be another one in DFTC?
                    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                    Illegitimi non carborundum

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Would the issue not be availability of hours?
                      Well put it like this.... for a career RDF course I was on, the CoC managed to swing getting an AW139 down to our location.
                      Spent a hour or so getting the full Pln trained up on embarking/diembarking drills with the aircarft sitting on the grass
                      Then wound it up, and brought us up for a short spin, one section at a time

                      Two days later, for our stint on the ground, TWO AW139s arrived and embarked us all from the camp to the training area

                      Will never forget it, great buzz

                      So it CAN be done with a bit of planning and work

                      As 'Canner says, a unit liaison in every unit would not be bad idea....
                      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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                      • #26
                        Every airline worth it's salt has a door simulator for cabin crew emergency training so making a mock-up of a helicopter cabin is not beyond the reach of the DF. Lots of carpentry facilities available to the DF. It doesn't have to be fancy.It just has to work and look the part.....you could cycle EVERY recruit/cadet/nco platoon through a short, simple syllabus of helicopter familiarisation in very quick time, so that when they get up close to the real thing, they won't be intimidated and will behave sensibly.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                          Well put it like this.... for a career RDF course I was on, the CoC managed to swing getting an AW139 down to our location.
                          Spent a hour or so getting the full Pln trained up on embarking/diembarking drills with the aircarft sitting on the grass
                          Then wound it up, and brought us up for a short spin, one section at a time

                          Two days later, for our stint on the ground, TWO AW139s arrived and embarked us all from the camp to the training area

                          Will never forget it, great buzz

                          So it CAN be done with a bit of planning and work

                          As 'Canner says, a unit liaison in every unit would not be bad idea....
                          Was the year pre-2008?

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                          • #28
                            2012 POTS course - RDF
                            I personally opened the door on the AW139 as we approached the LZ and was first man on the ground as the students in the section were sent out one at a time into all round cover.
                            That was my 4th or 5th time in a heli with the AC since I joined in 2004.
                            Just so you know.
                            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                            • #29
                              it's about as difficult as opening the door on a Transit van. Good to hear that the RDF are getting airtime.

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                              • #30
                                i'm at JHC at RAF Benson for two days this week - i'll see if i can get a Puma jolly..

                                fortunately, i've done the 'opening a door' course, and my fastening a seat-belt certificate arrived in the post just before Christmas.

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