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  • #16
    Not all the blame lands at DoD.

    I know of four technical/pilot officers who were committed lifers but just wanted to take a short <3 year broadening assignment/physical location move due to personal circumstances but ignorant "old school" mentality at LtCol and GOC level just saw numbers on a spreadsheet and said no.

    People are THE most important part of the DF. Something unfortunately a significant amout of mid/high ranking officers seem to forget

    J1 might be "banging the drum" but they are still giving less than 4 weeks notice to troops overseas of moving them to a post at the opposite end of the country.
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 4 May 2018, 00:02.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
      Apart from the obvious pay difficulties I think the duration of initial contracts should be revisited and revised down wards to the original 3 for army and 4 for NS. Now how do I justify the logic.....people on low pay are feeling trapped after the initial training is over and looking at another 4 and a half years in a very low paying job are to a degree not seeing light at the end of the tunnel anytime soon and opting for discharge by purchase rather than going the distance.

      If the goal posts were narrower they might go the distance and thing s might have improved by the time they get there. When you are been screwed around with extended stays on ships, end of contract may seem a long way off especially if its five years away.

      I would be interested to see the percentage of discharge by purchase within the first two years of contract.
      Period of enlistment is 12 years not 5 years. Even after 5 years it will cost you to leave

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      • #18
        Of course hearing that morale is bad isn’t going to aid morale either (but acknowledging it is absolutely necessary)

        Pay is one issue but far from the only one

        Look at administrative (maladminstration) the whole thing is set up inefficiently and dependant on people being around to physically hand documents to and phone to follow up to make sure that it was filed. Not doing so means you don’t get what you need/want.

        People are getting burnt out and fed up. No one can blame them.

        Unfortunately, pay isn’t something COS can address, he can highlight but that’s about it. Finally personnel issues are impacting ops (eg Baldonnel ATC), I never thought I’d see the day where the DF said no to something and took don’t capability and they were absolutely right to do so.

        But a very small group could easily, cheaply and quickly reduce the admin of the DF and make it more efficient and easier. Would it solve the problems..... no definitely not.... but it would make people lives easier

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          Of course hearing that morale is bad isn’t going to aid morale either (but acknowledging it is absolutely necessary)

          Pay is one issue but far from the only one

          Look at administrative (maladminstration) the whole thing is set up inefficiently and dependant on people being around to physically hand documents to and phone to follow up to make sure that it was filed. Not doing so means you don’t get what you need/want.

          People are getting burnt out and fed up. No one can blame them.

          Unfortunately, pay isn’t something COS can address, he can highlight but that’s about it. Finally personnel issues are impacting ops (eg Baldonnel ATC), I never thought I’d see the day where the DF said no to something and took don’t capability and they were absolutely right to do so.

          But a very small group could easily, cheaply and quickly reduce the admin of the DF and make it more efficient and easier. Would it solve the problems..... no definitely not.... but it would make people lives easier
          Well said ..... but please clear out your mail box

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Orion View Post
            Well said ..... but please clear out your mail box
            done

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
              Period of enlistment is 12 years not 5 years. Even after 5 years it will cost you to leave
              For those enlisted for General Service, you can initially serve for a period of five (5) years. For those enlisted under the Cadetship and Apprentice schemes, you can serve for twelve years (12). These periods of service are dependent on you passing your initial training course, maintain your medical grading and service efficiency.
              From the FAQs on the DF website....
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • #22
                Do the 5 year contracts still sign up for 7 years on FLR?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                  From the FAQs on the DF website....
                  Not sure what the FAQs say. DFR A10 provides for enlistment for a period of 12 years made up of 5 years permanent and 7 years reserve. This can be extended (EOS) to 9 years permanent and 3 years reserve and further extended (another EOS) to 12 years. After which a person can re-engage to complete 21 years service.

                  If a person chooses not to apply for EOS, they will not be discharged, they will be transferred to the first ljne reserve (TRDF). They can choose to buy themselves off the FLR for €12.70 (open to correction on that figure) quite easily. If they choose not to buy themselves off the FLR, they will remain on that until their service takes them up to 12 years service from date of enlistment. At 9 years the same thing happens.

                  At 12 years, they are free to walk for nothing.

                  If someone that is a line soldier (or sailor or airmcrew) wants to discharge by purchase at any time it will cost them €300. They are eligible for a reduction of 1/20 per year of service once they have completed 50% of their engagement ( 1/2 of 12 years), so after say 7 years the owe 13/20 x €300 = €195 etc.

                  I dont have A10 in front of me so cannot provide references but have most of them in my head if you want to pm me.

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                  • #24
                    0-5: Initial contract
                    5-9: Re-engagement
                    9-12: Re-engagement
                    12-21: Extension of service
                    21+: Continuance in service in 2 year blocks up to retirement age.

                    Those are the periods of time listed on our own A10 for manning control points, and the criteria associated at each point to "re-up". YES.Reserve service is included in our T&C's but we are being really pedantic if we are including that in our idea of how much time we serve.If a bloke does 5 years he will not turn around and say he did 12.

                    As for Morale.Two words.

                    It's Shit.

                    No amount of "Town Halls" or "Climate Surveys" will change that if the words are falling on deaf ears.
                    Actions speak louder than words.If a few senior Officers threatened to Resign(RIP Lt Gen Stapleton) I wonder would that grab the Minister's(Sorry. I mean Junior Minister as we don't seem to rate a full one) attention? Recruitment is a joke at this juncture. No point filling a bucket when there is a hole in the bottom.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by apod View Post
                      0-5: Initial contract
                      5-9: Re-engagement
                      9-12: Re-engagement
                      12-21: Extension of service
                      21+: Continuance in service in 2 year blocks up to retirement age.
                      .
                      5-9 is Extension of Service
                      9-12 is Extension of Service
                      12-21 is Re-engage to complete 21 years.

                      It is not being pedantic. Every person that enlists for general service does so for 12 years made up as I previously mentioned. Not 5 years!

                      People that enlist for purposes other tban general service have the same period of engagement but made up differently 0-4, 4-9 and 9-12 is used for TTS
                      Last edited by Fantasia; 4 May 2018, 19:30.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by apod View Post
                        0-5: Initial contract
                        5-9: Re-engagement
                        9-12: Re-engagement
                        12-21: Extension of service
                        21+: Continuance in service in 2 year blocks up to retirement age.

                        Those are the periods of time listed on our own A10 for manning control points, and the criteria associated at each point to "re-up". YES.Reserve service is included in our T&C's but we are being really pedantic if we are including that in our idea of how much time we serve.If a bloke does 5 years he will not turn around and say he did 12.

                        As for Morale.Two words.

                        It's Shit.

                        No amount of "Town Halls" or "Climate Surveys" will change that if the words are falling on deaf ears.
                        Actions speak louder than words.If a few senior Officers threatened to Resign(RIP Lt Gen Stapleton) I wonder would that grab the Minister's(Sorry. I mean Junior Minister as we don't seem to rate a full one) attention? Recruitment is a joke at this juncture. No point filling a bucket when there is a hole in the bottom.
                        The person who must step up to the plate here (or take full responsibility) is the CoS. If pushed the "minister" will say he didn't know there was a problem as the CoS didn't tell him, and if he did etc..
                        As happened some time ago on a prime time piece, where the "minister" threw the CoS under the bus.
                        So it's now or never.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                          The person who must step up to the plate here (or take full responsibility) is the CoS. If pushed the "minister" will say he didn't know there was a problem as the CoS didn't tell him, and if he did etc..
                          As happened some time ago on a prime time piece, where the "minister" threw the CoS under the bus.
                          So it's now or never.
                          Since the COS realised that the DF was as high as he was going and that there was nothing to be gained by being a whipping boy he has been much better in not just my view but many of my peers as well

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                            5-9 is Extension of Service
                            9-12 is Extension of Service
                            12-21 is Re-engage to complete 21 years.

                            It is not being pedantic. Every person that enlists for general service does so for 12 years made up as I previously mentioned. Not 5 years!

                            People that enlist for purposes other tban general service have the same period of engagement but made up differently 0-4, 4-9 and 9-12 is used for TTS
                            I had a feeling my terminology was off Vis a vis re-engage vs extension.My bad.

                            BUT.

                            Yes. It IS being pedantic.

                            Ask any soldier in any unit what their initial contract is and they will say 5 years. No one counts the 7 FLR.
                            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                              Since the COS realised that the DF was as high as he was going and that there was nothing to be gained by being a whipping boy he has been much better in not just my view but many of my peers as well
                              I think you have just summed up the major problem with the Officer Corps(and SNCO's). Too worried about their careers and moving up instead of looking after their troops.
                              Other Armies laugh at us when they hear we have representative associations as they retort "That's what our Officers are for".

                              The troops are not stupid.They can tell who the good Leaders are as they put themselves last.

                              It has never ceased to amaze me how much an officer can accomplish once they stop worrying about the next promotion.
                              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by apod View Post
                                I had a feeling my terminology was off Vis a vis re-engage vs extension.My bad.

                                BUT.

                                Yes. It IS being pedantic.

                                Ask any soldier in any unit what their initial contract is and they will say 5 years. No one counts the 7 FLR.
                                It will be counted if they try and leave.

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