Ministerial Air Transport Service

[Charlie252]

I know I have commented on it here in the past. It is truly pityful for a high wing machine. And a reason to trade up not down.

I see where you are coming from re the C-130 option. It has to be a useful capability. I would like to see something like the KC-390 considered. Similar payload, smaller price. Those looking only in terms of 6 monthly crew rotations are missing the point. There is a multitude of other regular potential uses. If the DF had the capability to rotate a Mowag into and out of theatre after 6-12 months on deployment they would not end up with knackered machines sitting in a yard in the Curragh for a couple of years at a time waiting for some TLC. There are plenty of other useful regular roles. You would quickly find if a properly useful non token capability was available the utilisation would be surprisingly high.

Agreed, as i said a C-130 class aircraft should be the basis to provide the required lift and range capabilities.

MPA replacement and Cessna replacement should not impinge on this capability.

[Jetjock]

Agreed, as i said a C-130 class aircraft should be the basis to provide the required lift and range capabilities.

MPA replacement and Cessna replacement should not impinge on this capability.

I would argue for retirement and non replacement of the Cessnas and a re roling of the AC with tactical transport capability. The Cessna or its potential replacement(Caravan or otherwise), have minimal military usefulness in a devoloped country with good infrastructure like Ireland and zero deployment prospects within the bounds of the typical DF overseas mission profile.

[GoneToTheCanner]

I disagree. If it's one thing the Don does, it's utility. It has to get the most out of it's aircraft and having a utility aircraft is a godsend. Helicopters become very expensive utility vehicles very quickly ( I was in enough of them and a Transit Van could have replaced most of the flights involved and a 172 wasn't big enough-the amount of times four people turned up to be flown somewhere is off the scale). The Cessnas and the King airs did countless utility flights (such as your Boss's Learjets do, JJ ;-) ), such as transporting tools, spares, mechs, pilots, weapons, kit and a million other things, such as non-patient air ambulance (hearts, lungs,etc) as well as the Border and a utility turbine would have been worth it's weight in gold in the African missions. So they don't do cashies anymore? so what?! Drop one task, take up another..apart from that, if you take the 172s off the board tomorrow, their function will have to be replaced and that invariably means roads or helicopters and the associated costs and time. It's displacement but not replacement. They should have been replaced at a landmark like 5000 hrs per hull and sold off,back when Cessnas were available for reasonable money but when a new 172 costs $300 K plus, it's easy to see why not. A couple of Caravans for local utility and ferry them overseas for muddy stuff in Africa...

[FMP]

GoneToTheCanner...........with regard to alleged rapid role changes with pallets, in reality, they are a pain to change out, a pain to keep serviceable and a pain to store safely. It's actually easier when they wear a bit in service as the fittings loosen up and the alleged quick turn around can happen but manufacturers claimed change times are a joke. We had 737 Combis years ago that were allegedly changeable in 45 minutes. Not a hope. A good team, doing it every night of the week, with a ready supply of spares, got it down to a sustainable two hours, just to change out and replace the modules, even before loading it. You also need pallet loaders (hugely expensive, heavy and costly to maintain), safe and secure module storage and lots of well-trained manpower. We still do it with crew rest modules on A330s and it's still a pain to deal with and accomodate in the turnaround....Any DF person who wants to go down that route should spend a week in the cargo area of an airport and get their eyes opened. I've said it before; the Don should have a dedicated utility aircraft with a ramp for ass-and-trash jobs and not waste time, money and energy with palletising unless they are prepared to spend a great deal of money tooling up men and machines to have even a basic grasp of it. A ramp 295 only needs a flat bed truck on hand to be useful..........

Well highlighted GTTC.

Civilian V's Military.

One designed for an all whistle's and bell's facility.

The other for a bugger all facilities.

All you need to load a 463L on a military cargo aircraft (295 takes standard NATO 463 which is what the modules are installed on) is one of these:



Or if you want to get real fancy, one of these:



And if your really really in a hurry to unload ,,,,,,,,,,,,

[FMP]

Speaking of unloading in a hurry, and a bit of humanitarian aid.

MPA today ,,,,,,,, Airdrop tomorrow.

[DeV]

Well highlighted GTTC.

Civilian V's Military.

One designed for an all whistle's and bell's facility.

The other for a bugger all facilities.

All you need to load a 463L on a military cargo aircraft (295 takes standard NATO 463 which is what the modules are installed on) is one of these:



Or if you want to get real fancy, one of these:



And if your really really in a hurry to unload ,,,,,,,,,,,,

Depends on how fragile the module is (for the forklift option)

[GoneToTheCanner]

We keep a crew rest module for long haul and it has to live in it's own box on it's own trailer, so that's two dedicated objects just for one module alone. The box it lives in is used for nothing else. It gets used every day and has to be fed into the logistical chain that surrounds the aircraft, so the loaders, engineers, cabin crew, fleet cleaners and aircrew all have to know that it is going on their aircraft. Five different groups of people who all have an active part in the presence of a module in the hold of one aeroplane, not to mention the fleet planners who have to make sure that it is aligned to the correct aircraft for the correct route..........apart from that, when you do overseas unloading of Mil kit, you need a forklift, such as an Eager Beaver or a Moffatt Mounty as an absolute minimum.

[Rhodes]

From Facebook.

A Spanish Eurofighter pulls alongside to admire the Air Corps' Learjet 45!

[DeV]

Looking at the demand level can a replacement for the GIV be justified?

These are figures for air ambulance & MATS for the CASAs, L45 & G4:
2013:
Total missions 145
Total hours 599

2012:
Total missions 135
Total hours 544

While the amount of missions and hours definitely doesn't justify it you have to look at the possibility that 2/3 missions were undertaken simultaneously

[Jetjock]

One of those rare yet significant occasions that I alluded to earlier in this thread, that highlights the importance of retaining a long range state aircraft happened the other day in Berkeley, Ca. Tragically these families can no longer rely on government aircraft for repatriations, be they medical or otherwise.

[hptmurphy]

One of those rare yet significant occasions that I alluded to earlier in this thread, that highlights the importance of retaining a long range state aircraft happened the other day in Berkeley, Ca. Tragically these families can no longer rely on government aircraft for repatriations, be they medical or otherwise.

Are there not direct services to that part of the world that are far more comfortable ?

[Jetjock]

Are there not direct services to that part of the world that are far more comfortable ?

For the affected families commercial would be standard practice. Given the apparent severity of injuries, medical repatruations will be looking at either a long stay in the US or private aircraft charter.

[trellheim]

medical repatruations will be looking at either a long stay in the US or private aircraft charter

From personal, painful experience depending on numbers a private flight back might well be cheaper than the medical costs in US hospitals. I have no idea how the USA survives with that medical system.

[Tempest]

The Americans have alluded to not charging for medical services for these individuals in the circumstances.

[trellheim]

I very much doubt that will happen.