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  • Well - In one of the recent reports we learned that Min Paul Kehoe TD said the sale was a matter for the DoD and NS. We were then subsequently informed that the Minister had gifted the ship to Malta despite the offer of €500,000 towards the State coffers. So if it was a political decision why doesn't the Dept say so and have the courtesy to at least reply to a potential bidder? It is after all public money and God knows the DF can do with every penny atm.

    In relation to the GIV sale I stand over everything I said - the AC were not involved in the decision to sell the jet or the subsequent negotiations and it's loss is significant in terms of AC & DF capabilities, not only in terms of VIP transport. This leads me to the opinion that the Dept couldn't wait to sell the jet for reasons other than that aircraft servicing costs money and recouping some costs was not a significant consideration. It is entirely consistent IMHO with their agenda to run down the AC and the wider DF in the long-term. Not surprisingly really that DCOS Ops has decided to call it a day !
    Last edited by Pure Hover; 31 March 2015, 18:41.

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    • Min Paul Kehoe is not the minister for Defence.
      There was no potential bidder. There was an individual with a wad of cash. His offer was not accepted, as is the right of any seller. Malta had expressed an interest In Aoife, I understand for some time, long before there was any notification of auction. Indeed there was very little detail about the actual auction, unusual for the particular auctioneer. It was only going to auction if it was not otherwise disposed of.

      If I'm selling my car on done deal, I sell it to whoever I want to. When I sell it I don't ring around everyone else who made inquiries to give my reasons. I just take it off the market. That's life.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • But if you decide to give away your car for free and ignore a randomer with the wad of cash you're wasting your own money not Joe public's who's paying for you to piss away perfectly good money. The minister gets to feel good for a bit for buying the big issue but he shouldn't be giving away a cent until we're not so dependent on borrowing money as a country. Is there some unpublished training contract with the NS/NMCI or is more money being wasted on that too??
        Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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        • The appropriate accounting procedure would have been for the dept dealing with foreign aid to buy/pay DoD for the unit and preserve the DoD budget.Same diff to taxpayer but at least the DoD would not be getting into aid programs.

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          • €500k is someone trying to get their name in the paper

            Deirdre and Emer were sold for a combinated total of €561,300

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            • Would have thought the sale was subject to protocols regarding public notice etc.

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              • Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
                But if you decide to give away your car for free and ignore a randomer with the wad of cash you're wasting your own money not Joe public's who's paying for you to piss away perfectly good money. The minister gets to feel good for a bit for buying the big issue but he shouldn't be giving away a cent until we're not so dependent on borrowing money as a country. Is there some unpublished training contract with the NS/NMCI or is more money being wasted on that too??
                True, but it may not be 'perfectly good money'. I have no idea who it was, but if it had been a reputable source I would have thought it would have been considered. If it subsequently turned up being used by some 'randomer' country with an appalling human rights record then the same Joe public would be disgusted by the prioritizing of money over due diligence.

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                • I'll bet, after the election, a tender will appear to replace the G.IV.........the money earned for this one? will it go to the DoD or be pissed away in general revenue?

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                  • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                    I'll bet, after the election, a tender will appear to replace the G.IV.........the money earned for this one? will it go to the DoD or be pissed away in general revenue?
                    I wouldn't bet on it. (Depending on who gets in of course). Public opinion was bad enough in 1992 when Charlie was getting his fancy jet. It went atomic some years ago when Bertie wanted an Airbus Exec Jet. All talk in the dail lately has been towards some sort of practical transport aircraft. Ministers can fly on commercial airlines. Even the Queen flies BA.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                    • Yet Betty Windsor still retains the Royal Flight, as a back-up and the use of commercial transport by her is such a monumental pain in the ass for all concerned, that she doesn't do it very often...........A G.IV is a very practical way to move pols and their entourage, short of hiring Netjets or some other commercial operator. People focusing on criticising the State for horsing money away on a GIV are missing the point; the State squanders money on plenty of other things that need more critical attention than a useful jet.

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                      • the Royals, and Pols, use of 32 Sqn is pretty limited - the vast majority of their journeys are on commercial or private contractor aircraft. 32 Sqn's stock in trade is support for military operations (light cargo, individuals, parts, diplomatic/military visits to places where a DAS is required..), and support for wider government operations.

                        the government of Ireland does have a legitimate requirement to get small numbers of people to places in Western Europe at very little notice - that also fits in the air ambulance role, and i personally take the view that it has a requirement for a tactical airlift capability (both to support military operations overseas and take part in wider European NEO operations on Europes periphery). what it does not need is a 20 passenger, transatlantic capability to take people to the largest city in North America for a jolly/diplomatic/trade delegation the date of which is known a decade in advance.

                        what fits those roles is something like a C-27J, C-295, or even something like a KC-390.

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                        • You sit in a C-27 or a 295 for longer than an hour and it will feel like glacial drift and quite simply, commercial airlines don't do past-midnight very well so the need for ad-hoc wings is important and the Lear can do it, to a point. There have been quite a few occasions when direct, ad-hoc ministerial airlift was needed and will be needed again............if the Don had a lifter like a KC-390 and used it to bring a Minister anywhere, it would be a waste of an airlifter and they would face public criticism.......I've said it before; MATS in Ireland should be under the umbrella of the DFA, not the Don and run like the Garda aircraft, ie, pilots and support supplied by the Don.

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                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            You sit in a C-27 or a 295 for longer than an hour and it will feel like glacial drift and quite simply, commercial airlines don't do past-midnight very well so the need for ad-hoc wings is important and the Lear can do it, to a point. There have been quite a few occasions when direct, ad-hoc ministerial airlift was needed and will be needed again............if the Don had a lifter like a KC-390 and used it to bring a Minister anywhere, it would be a waste of an airlifter and they would face public criticism.......I've said it before; MATS in Ireland should be under the umbrella of the DFA, not the Don and run like the Garda aircraft, ie, pilots and support supplied by the Don.
                            The advantage of AC owned is that it can be multi-roled - MATS, troop rotation, air ambulance, SAR TC Etc

                            I would say that for cost effectiveness we need a multi-role A/c, so what do we look for?:

                            Another Learjet?
                            All the benefits of commonality in the fleet, multi-role, shorter range and less capacity than GIV

                            A/c similar to GIV?
                            Over spec for many taskings within EU (less economical)

                            Airliner?
                            Way over spec and size for practically all task (except small amount of overseas rotations) low usage and high cost. Too big for most common taskings, therefore low utilisation and too expensive

                            Smallish tactical airlifter (say CN235 sized)?
                            Not suitable for MATS, high number of flight to conduct rotation flights (due to small size - not economical)
                            Too big for most common taskings, therefore low utilisation and too expensive


                            Medium tactical airlifter (say Herc)?
                            Not suitable for MATS, low utilisation except overseas rotations. Too big for most common taskings, therefore low utilisation and too expensive

                            I say stay AC, and bill relevant department for fuel
                            Last edited by DeV; 2 April 2015, 22:02.

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                            • It is quite easy to say good riddance to what in the populist view was a symbol of government excess and everything that was wrong with Irish society in an era of unaccountability. However, the reality is that the asset itself was a good compropise in capability for a country without the financial means to buy and support a larger state aircraft, providing the country with a long range short notice capability for diplomatic purposes, air ambulance, military casevac and evacuation of Irish citizens from trouble areas worldwide. It`s sale is a loss in strategic capability to the State.

                              If we are to bemoan the excess and notions of Celtic Tiger extravagence associated with the aircraft a rational analysis must come to the conclusion that it was the relative flippancy with which requests for its use by ministers were signed off on by the Dept of an Taoiseach that should be the target for people here (who should know better) to direct their ire and not the aircraft itself.

                              To dispel some misconceptions:

                              1. It was not a drain on the Defence budget. It was bought on a multi payment multi year contract. There was no lump sum paid.

                              2. Similarly sized and financed countries do not rely solely on commercial air travel for long range VIP transport. Portugal and Denmark retain long range biz jets in their inventories. Czech republic have an A318. Commercial air travel should long have been the primary mode of travel for Irish politicians on non time critical excursions. Again, blame the administrators not the aircraft.

                              3. The interior of the aircraft was not lavish. It was very very modest by corporate jet standard.

                              4. David Cameron flies commercial. Yes when possible and for State visits he will charter an entire 777 for his entourage, financially I prefer the GIV option. The British military retain a long range passenger capability for short notice requirements. In the form of various A330 MRTT aircraft.

                              5. A contract with Netjets would be a more economical alternative? It's not always about financial economy. No matter how quickly an aircraft could be made available it cannot beat having direct access to your own aircraft. The obviously national callsign "Irish 251" opened ATC doors, whereas a Netjets callsign carries no weight.

                              The aircraft should be replaced. It might not be the populist view. It is a huge loss in capability for a relatively modest aircraft. The eventualities for which it's loss will be felt most are rare but it will be sharply felt if and when they occur. While it may have been used as such in the past it is not solely a transatlantic capable state taxi. Glad to see Minister Coveney consulting across departments as it should be an inter-departmental purchase given it's inter-departmental uses. It should not come from the Defence budget alone.
                              Last edited by Jetjock; 4 April 2015, 08:43.

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                              • Well said, JJ. It is also a matter of record that there were constant arguments about who should actually pay for the operation of the G. IV and the Lear as it was tossed around between DoD, DFA, Finance, Office of the Taoiseach and the Don and there were constant battles for political point-scoring because pols were fighting against civil servants. When we had the Fougas, they were effectively grounded as all funds were prioritised for the Gulfie and it got to the stage where the cheapest aircraft, the 172s, were taking financial hits and were grounded for want of parts. A lot of the infighting was repeated in the Garda vs Air Corps debacle over the operation of the helis and Defender and there was more with the saga of SAR, in which the Don did not cover itself with glory over manning issues. Personally, I'd have a VIP jet for all of the reasons you pointed out above, as long as it had it's own dedicated budget.

                                regards
                                gttC

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