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  • Can anyone tell us how long it is viable to own/operate/maintain the G4 and what may be required to replace it if or when that day comes?

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    • I don't know how long is left in it, prob as along as you like TBH, but if it could wait about 5 years or so the GIV and both CASAs could be replaced by multi role Challanger 604s like the Danes did with their GIII replacement.

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      • Could funding be used for a dual role a/c such as the one you mentioned like was provided for the CASA's back in the early 90's?
        I do like the idea of a multi role jet type for Marpat and VIP/AA. For the amount of VIP flights that are undertaken it would be far better VFM to have a couple of Jets fitted out for both.
        Last edited by Meatbomb; 14 June 2013, 21:15.

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        • The CASAs were 50% funded by the EU (a condition being that it spends something like 95% of the time on fishery protection) and should have a good few years left in them (considering they had an MLUA within the last 5 years or so).

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            The CASAs were 50% funded by the EU (a condition being that it spends something like 95% of the time on fishery protection) and should have a good few years left in them (considering they had an MLUA within the last 5 years or so).
            Well the mission equipment got upgraded but the airframes are 20 yrs old next year.

            Let's say they have another 20 yrs left in them, does that rule out a multi role a/c for VIP/Marpat??
            Would the AC take a second hand airframe from civi street? Has it ever been done before? Was CN250 a civi a/c before its time in Bal?

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            • Originally posted by Meatbomb View Post
              Was CN250 a civi a/c before its time in Bal?
              C250 was S/N 019, the first production CN235-10(no CRTs) off the line. It was CASA's demo aircraft prior to IAC service and is currently with a South American military operator. It never operated in a civvy role unless you want to count the manufacturer as such.

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              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                The CASAs were 50% funded by the EU (a condition being that it spends something like 95% of the time on fishery protection)
                Just for clarity: The original deal was that the EU paid for 50% of flying spent on MARPATs and they then set an annual minimum requirement for flying hours on patrol. It was in the order of 600hrs per aircraft at the time. Any amount of hours could be used for other missions (air ambulance/troop transport etc), but the EU would make no contribution to these costs.

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                • No.

                  However, when replacement comes for consideration, greater priority should be given to MARPOL and Top cover. This is being done elsewhere using Lear type aircraft.


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                  • Hi there,
                    the problem with supposedly multi-roling aircraft is that they wear out much quicker; ie, the King Air , 240, was expected to be a VIP aircraft and double as a liaison aircraft and crew trainer. Even when 240 was reduced to operating as a secondary VIP aircraft, it's use as a crew trainer, doing numerous circuits and hi-lo-hi operations as a converter of cadets/maintainer of ratings/deliverer of spares/ferrying of crews,etc,etc, mean that it wore out much quicker than it should have and built up a huge number of hours for one airframe. There comes a point in an aircraft's life when it's a case of diminishing returns and it has to be stood down. If it's stablemates had been kept, 240 would still be working and still be useful. In fact, if they got a couple of good second-hand King Airs, they would save hours used by more expensive aircraft. C250 was a great aircraft to have as it was a real jack of all trades and another would save wasted MARPAT airframe hours.

                    regards
                    GttC

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                    • Originally posted by Shaqra View Post
                      You can call it anything you like but it's true. I used to do these for a living (among other things) and a true ABC exercise (as opposed to a time in motion study) involves as much effort in measurement and calibration and the assignment of "value" as does the execution of the Activity itself. Secondly for the exercise to be robust it needs to be carried out over an extended period of time under all of the variations of execution. That's why they are simple to describe but time consuming and costly to execute. They are only of value if you are prepared to, and have the authority (for which read political will) to change the processes and challenge the existence of the function in the first place.
                      So do I, and I also know that consultants are the last refuge of incompetant managers.

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                      • So do I, and I also know that consultants are the last refuge of incompetant managers.
                        Or people how want to hide the truth.

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                        • Ministerial Air Transport Service

                          Shatter broke Cabinet rules over State jet

                          Justice Minister Alan Shatter has been reprimanded by the Taoiseach for breaking strict Cabinet rules on the use of a government jet.

                          Mr Shatter booked the Government 's Learjet for a return trip from Brussels without first seeking approval from Enda Kenny's office.

                          The Department of An Taoiseach wrote to the Justice Minister about the breach of policy and his officials were forced to admit they "regretted" the "confusion" caused by the violation of government rules.

                          Use of both the Gulf Stream IV and the Learjet have been closely monitored by the Taoiseach's department since Mr Kenny made a commitment in his Programme for Government to reduce ministerial air miles.

                          Ministers are required to make an application in writing to the Taoiseach's department outlining their reasons for not taking significantly cheaper commercial flights.

                          The Cabinet Handbook states: "The relative cost of Ministerial Air Transport Service travel to possible alternatives should always be borne in mind in preparing travel plans."

                          Mr Shatter, who will be in Mexico for St Patrick's Day, clocked up a €267,110 bill travelling around the globe in state-owned private jets last year.

                          In November, the Taoiseach's department wrote to his office asking for why Mr Shatter requested the Air Corps to pick him up in Brussels without first seeking approval.

                          He was attending an EU defence ministers' meeting with four other officials when he asked for the Learjet to return him to Dublin on November 19.

                          Two days later, Mr Kenny's private secretary highlighted the cabinet rules on ministerial air travel and wrote: "This is to be observed with regard to all missions."

                          He added: "Please set out the circumstances as to why this was not observed on this occasion."

                          Mr Shatter's private secretary replied the next day, explaining that the jet was requested because airline strikes in Belgium would have delayed his return to Dublin.

                          He acknowledged that "normal procedure" was not followed and said the minister intended to inform the Taoiseach but did not get the opportunity.


                          "It was the minister's intention to brief the Taoiseach personally on his return as to the circumstances which gave rise to the flight.

                          "However, because of pressure of time and his need to travel to Brussels again on Thursday morning, he did not get an opportunity to do so before your letter was issued," the reply stated.

                          "Any confusion which may have arisen in regard to this matter is regretted."

                          Junior Minister for European Affairs Paschal Donohue and two of his officials accompanied Mr Shatter and his four staff. The cost of the one-and-a-half hour journey from Belgium was €926 per passenger. A similar ticket with Aer Lingus would cost around €65.

                          Mr Shatter had previously booked the government jet for the Brussels trip, but cancelled it in favour of commercial flights, according to officials in the Taoiseach's Department.

                          CRUCIAL

                          A Justice Department spokeswoman said the minister had a number of commitments that week and it was "absolutely crucial" that he come back to Dublin that evening.

                          The following week, the Department of Defence booked "back-up" commercial flights costing more than €16,000 for Mr Shatter and five officials after receiving permission to take the jet on a state visit to the Middle East.

                          These flights were subsequently cancelled and the department incurred cancellation fees totalling €725.16.

                          The taxpayer was billed €64,260 for flying the minister and his delegation between Lebanon, Jordan and Israel during the official visit.

                          While in Jordan, Mr Shatter's private secretary spent €488 on "entertainment" in the luxury Sheraton Hotel in Amman, according to expense claims.

                          He did not provide a detailed receipt for the spending, but the Department of Defence said that it was spent on food and drinks for 15 people.

                          A spokeswoman said: "This was a working dinner attended by representatives of the UN, EU External Action Service and NGOs."

                          Mr Shatter's wife, Carol, joined him on a two-day state visit to Lithuania for EU ministers of justice and home affairs meetings in July last year.

                          They stayed in the five-star Radisson Blu Astorija in the capital, Vilnius, at the expense of the Lithuanian government.

                          While the minister and the rest of the delegates took part in high-level meetings, his wife and the spouses of other attendees enjoyed sightseeing trips around the "mysteries of the Old Town".

                          A Justice Department spokeswoman said it was "often forgotten" the amount of work the minister did in his dual roles as head of the Department of Justice and the Department of Defence. She said: "He's one minister running two separate departments. There's no question of him not working hard."
                          Justice Minister Alan Shatter has been reprimanded by the Taoiseach for breaking strict Cabinet rules on the use of a government jet.

                          Comment


                          • No opportunity to put the shoe to the smart arse of Alan Shatter will be allowed to pass. Unwritten rule of FG and FF. No matter how good he is, they still hate him, because he is not a culchie/is a southside Dub/is smarter than them all........

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                            • One of the major benefits of MATS is that they are available at short notice without the need to book flights - does the need for written permission not defeat the object ?

                              Oh and the reduced use of the GIV and Learjet actually pushes up the cost per flight hour, due to the fact that there are less hours to cover the fixed cost

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                              • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                                No opportunity to put the shoe to the smart arse of Alan Shatter will be allowed to pass. Unwritten rule of FG and FF. No matter how good he is, they still hate him, because he is not a culchie/is a southside Dub/is smarter than them all........
                                Also easy to understand. does not have a purple face or wear brown boots with blue suits. or go ta mass an a Sun da
                                Last edited by sofa; 15 March 2014, 22:25.

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