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  1. #26
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    The certain minister used the Casa to open her now husbands Off Licence, I believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    It wasn't her husband's (not that that makes it better).



    This sort of story provides an easy opportunity to diminish the job done by the AC , but remember they do not decide who flies on the aircraft. When they are tasked with the mission, they complete it. It is not the AC's job to question the political niceties of who is going where, or more importantly why. When the AC get a mission to bring the Tanaiste somewhere, it is not part of their function to require a political or financial justification from Govt as to why they should do the job.

    The military is apolitical. If the military start requiring justification/explanation from the elected Govt before doing anything they are tasked with then we are veering into dangerous territory as a nation. Don't blame the AC for decisions taken by those elected by the people.



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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenet View Post
    ...Don't blame the AC for decisions taken by those elected by the people....
    while this is true, the AC is - to a very large degree - responsible for the aircraft that get bought/operated, and the 'vibe' it gives off. the AC has, for many years, given off the vibe of being a cross between a flying club and a training school for RyanAir/Aer Lingus, and bought aircraft that suggest that it is in fact a rather comfortable air taxi service. it can therefore hardly claim to be astonished and distressed when it gets treated as such.

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  5. #28
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    Government jet sold to US company


    The Gulfstream 4 jet was sold to a US company for more than €462,000

    One of the Government's ministerial jets, which was recently withdrawn from service, has been sold to a US based company for over €460,000.

    The sale went through late last year but the price has only now become public.

    Last summer, the Gulfstream 4 jet underwent its annual maintenance inspection in the US.

    According to the Department of Defence, it became apparent that the servicing and repair of the aircraft would have involved a significantly higher level of investment that it was anticipated.

    It was then decided that the jet would be withdrawn from service and would not return to Ireland.

    The Department of Defence confirmed today that the aircraft was sold four months ago to a US based company for €462,000.

    An inter-departmental group has now been established to see if another replacement aircraft will be sought.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0330/690...to-us-company/

  6. #29
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  7. #30
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    Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words...

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  9. #31
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    Already talks of a replacement...I'm sure a Casa C-295M could provide the due comfort for ministers :p
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  10. #32
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    The Yanks must just love dealing with the DOD. Here is 1 for sale with more hours.

    https://mobile.globalair.com/aircraf...ale_74375.html

    Big price difference. 251 now flying in the states.

  11. #33
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    Good riddance. It's a memorial to the worst excesses of the Haughey era. Charlie famously personally selected the colour of the trim and furnishings for this aircraft. It replaced a Leased G3, which in turn replaced a perfectly good HS125-700 which was not quite flashy enough for Champagne Charlie.
    We bought this monstrosity while the fighter squadron were struggling with Fougas from the 1950s, and Marchettis from the 1970s trained the new pilot. The 1963 built Alouette 3 was still the workhorse of the fleet, and this was still considered a priority purchase.
    We couldn't afford to keep a puma, but we could afford this.

  12. #34
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    The same Dept who refused a substantial offer for the recently decommissioned NS vessel and then gave it away for free!

    Utterly incompetent but thoroughly consistent with their downsizing agenda for the whole DF. Love to have been a fly on the wall at those sale negotiations if you could call them that.

  13. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    Already talks of a replacement...I'm sure a Casa C-295M could provide the due comfort for ministers :p
    You must be joking! King Air would be faster!

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  15. #36
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    Would it! For the purposes of commonality and a larger fleets I'm sure they can sit in a c-295 for a regular transit to Brussels

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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure Hover View Post
    The same Dept who refused a substantial offer for the recently decommissioned NS vessel and then gave it away for free!

    Utterly incompetent but thoroughly consistent with their downsizing agenda for the whole DF. Love to have been a fly on the wall at those sale negotiations if you could call them that.
    Has it occured to you that giving the ship away was a political decision rather than the Department screwing up?

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  19. #38
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    Well - In one of the recent reports we learned that Min Paul Kehoe TD said the sale was a matter for the DoD and NS. We were then subsequently informed that the Minister had gifted the ship to Malta despite the offer of €500,000 towards the State coffers. So if it was a political decision why doesn't the Dept say so and have the courtesy to at least reply to a potential bidder? It is after all public money and God knows the DF can do with every penny atm.

    In relation to the GIV sale I stand over everything I said - the AC were not involved in the decision to sell the jet or the subsequent negotiations and it's loss is significant in terms of AC & DF capabilities, not only in terms of VIP transport. This leads me to the opinion that the Dept couldn't wait to sell the jet for reasons other than that aircraft servicing costs money and recouping some costs was not a significant consideration. It is entirely consistent IMHO with their agenda to run down the AC and the wider DF in the long-term. Not surprisingly really that DCOS Ops has decided to call it a day !
    Last edited by Pure Hover; 31st March 2015 at 17:41.

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  21. #39
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    Min Paul Kehoe is not the minister for Defence.
    There was no potential bidder. There was an individual with a wad of cash. His offer was not accepted, as is the right of any seller. Malta had expressed an interest In Aoife, I understand for some time, long before there was any notification of auction. Indeed there was very little detail about the actual auction, unusual for the particular auctioneer. It was only going to auction if it was not otherwise disposed of.

    If I'm selling my car on done deal, I sell it to whoever I want to. When I sell it I don't ring around everyone else who made inquiries to give my reasons. I just take it off the market. That's life.

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  23. #40
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    But if you decide to give away your car for free and ignore a randomer with the wad of cash you're wasting your own money not Joe public's who's paying for you to piss away perfectly good money. The minister gets to feel good for a bit for buying the big issue but he shouldn't be giving away a cent until we're not so dependent on borrowing money as a country. Is there some unpublished training contract with the NS/NMCI or is more money being wasted on that too??
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  24. #41
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    The appropriate accounting procedure would have been for the dept dealing with foreign aid to buy/pay DoD for the unit and preserve the DoD budget.Same diff to taxpayer but at least the DoD would not be getting into aid programs.

  25. #42
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    €500k is someone trying to get their name in the paper

    Deirdre and Emer were sold for a combinated total of €561,300

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  27. #43
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    Would have thought the sale was subject to protocols regarding public notice etc.

  28. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    But if you decide to give away your car for free and ignore a randomer with the wad of cash you're wasting your own money not Joe public's who's paying for you to piss away perfectly good money. The minister gets to feel good for a bit for buying the big issue but he shouldn't be giving away a cent until we're not so dependent on borrowing money as a country. Is there some unpublished training contract with the NS/NMCI or is more money being wasted on that too??
    True, but it may not be 'perfectly good money'. I have no idea who it was, but if it had been a reputable source I would have thought it would have been considered. If it subsequently turned up being used by some 'randomer' country with an appalling human rights record then the same Joe public would be disgusted by the prioritizing of money over due diligence.

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  30. #45
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    I'll bet, after the election, a tender will appear to replace the G.IV.........the money earned for this one? will it go to the DoD or be pissed away in general revenue?

  31. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I'll bet, after the election, a tender will appear to replace the G.IV.........the money earned for this one? will it go to the DoD or be pissed away in general revenue?
    I wouldn't bet on it. (Depending on who gets in of course). Public opinion was bad enough in 1992 when Charlie was getting his fancy jet. It went atomic some years ago when Bertie wanted an Airbus Exec Jet. All talk in the dail lately has been towards some sort of practical transport aircraft. Ministers can fly on commercial airlines. Even the Queen flies BA.

  32. #47
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    Yet Betty Windsor still retains the Royal Flight, as a back-up and the use of commercial transport by her is such a monumental pain in the ass for all concerned, that she doesn't do it very often...........A G.IV is a very practical way to move pols and their entourage, short of hiring Netjets or some other commercial operator. People focusing on criticising the State for horsing money away on a GIV are missing the point; the State squanders money on plenty of other things that need more critical attention than a useful jet.

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  34. #48
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    the Royals, and Pols, use of 32 Sqn is pretty limited - the vast majority of their journeys are on commercial or private contractor aircraft. 32 Sqn's stock in trade is support for military operations (light cargo, individuals, parts, diplomatic/military visits to places where a DAS is required..), and support for wider government operations.

    the government of Ireland does have a legitimate requirement to get small numbers of people to places in Western Europe at very little notice - that also fits in the air ambulance role, and i personally take the view that it has a requirement for a tactical airlift capability (both to support military operations overseas and take part in wider European NEO operations on Europes periphery). what it does not need is a 20 passenger, transatlantic capability to take people to the largest city in North America for a jolly/diplomatic/trade delegation the date of which is known a decade in advance.

    what fits those roles is something like a C-27J, C-295, or even something like a KC-390.

  35. #49
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    You sit in a C-27 or a 295 for longer than an hour and it will feel like glacial drift and quite simply, commercial airlines don't do past-midnight very well so the need for ad-hoc wings is important and the Lear can do it, to a point. There have been quite a few occasions when direct, ad-hoc ministerial airlift was needed and will be needed again............if the Don had a lifter like a KC-390 and used it to bring a Minister anywhere, it would be a waste of an airlifter and they would face public criticism.......I've said it before; MATS in Ireland should be under the umbrella of the DFA, not the Don and run like the Garda aircraft, ie, pilots and support supplied by the Don.

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  37. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    You sit in a C-27 or a 295 for longer than an hour and it will feel like glacial drift and quite simply, commercial airlines don't do past-midnight very well so the need for ad-hoc wings is important and the Lear can do it, to a point. There have been quite a few occasions when direct, ad-hoc ministerial airlift was needed and will be needed again............if the Don had a lifter like a KC-390 and used it to bring a Minister anywhere, it would be a waste of an airlifter and they would face public criticism.......I've said it before; MATS in Ireland should be under the umbrella of the DFA, not the Don and run like the Garda aircraft, ie, pilots and support supplied by the Don.
    The advantage of AC owned is that it can be multi-roled - MATS, troop rotation, air ambulance, SAR TC Etc

    I would say that for cost effectiveness we need a multi-role A/c, so what do we look for?:

    Another Learjet?
    All the benefits of commonality in the fleet, multi-role, shorter range and less capacity than GIV

    A/c similar to GIV?
    Over spec for many taskings within EU (less economical)

    Airliner?
    Way over spec and size for practically all task (except small amount of overseas rotations) low usage and high cost. Too big for most common taskings, therefore low utilisation and too expensive

    Smallish tactical airlifter (say CN235 sized)?
    Not suitable for MATS, high number of flight to conduct rotation flights (due to small size - not economical)
    Too big for most common taskings, therefore low utilisation and too expensive


    Medium tactical airlifter (say Herc)?
    Not suitable for MATS, low utilisation except overseas rotations. Too big for most common taskings, therefore low utilisation and too expensive

    I say stay AC, and bill relevant department for fuel
    Last edited by DeV; 2nd April 2015 at 21:02.

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