UK hosts Europe's largest Military Exercise

[pym]

As DeV says, it's politics.

I don't doubt the DF would love to be involved.

Wouldn't be surprised if the NS carry on hptmurphy's legacy and take a sneak peek, ditto with the AC Casas.

Participation will happen sooner or later.

[DeV]

Lads your preaching to the converted here!

The political reality is that SF is now one of the major opposition parties in Dublin and the amount of times the EUBGs comes up in political questions is stupid. Almost the term NATO makes a lot of people vocal, inspite of PfP, IFOR/SFOR, KFOR, ISAF, etc

Then there is the operational & cost part:
The last EUBG contingent weren't sent to the overseas ex (I assume due to cost)
Operational days at sea (never mind training) have been cut
Flying hours have been cut
POL, rations etc have been cut
Troops deployed overseas have been cut




Having said that their are ways and means if the DF taught about it (and other countries could help) that they could get huge benefits from participation:
Air/sea lift provided at zero cost
Access to others POL, pyro, etc at zero cost
Use it as a replacement for other army ex's at home
Use it as a replacement for a sea ex at home

[DeV]

But there is always a cost, eg NS ex's are normally held off the Cork coast, so then you are going to be missing half the fleet who will not be available nearby at short notice, you have the cost of naval pay & patrol duty allowance and fuel to get to/from the ex area.

[ropebag]

As DeV says, it's politics...

i know it is the politics of 'da brits' and 'imperialist running dogs', but i just don't understand why it has such traction?

i have watched German Armoured units exercise in Poland, i have watched Luftwaffe Tornado's fly over France - i just don't get how the Irish government, which is quite happy to talk about the EU BG's, about NATO pfp, about EU defence cooperation, about exercises in Sweden, just caves to this crap.

it is the one thing that utterly perplexes me about Ireland and its politics - i don't understand the hold such a small political minority has over governments of all colours.

[DeV]

Many don't like the EUBG, EDA, defence cooperation etc

Don't stay NATO and PfP in the same sentence they will catch on!

Cost is now a factor in the Swedish ex's (and they are neutral!)

[pym]

i know it is the politics of 'da brits' and 'imperialist running dogs', but i just don't understand why it has such traction?

i have watched German Armoured units exercise in Poland, i have watched Luftwaffe Tornado's fly over France - i just don't get how the Irish government, which is quite happy to talk about the EU BG's, about NATO pfp, about EU defence cooperation, about exercises in Sweden, just caves to this crap.

it is the one thing that utterly perplexes me about Ireland and its politics - i don't understand the hold such a small political minority has over governments of all colours.

I'm probably as perplexed as you are.

I think it's largely the result of the neutrality mythology that has been built up over generations and reinforced by successive governments & political parties of all hues.

You'll hear politicians talk about our proud history of neutrality, you'll see & hear people protesting the USAF presence in Shannon because it goes against our long standing neutrality.

It's trotted out uncritically, all the time because - in my opinion - it's self serving and enables a lot of self righteous finger wagging. See, we're better than that war stuff.

But you dig down a little, just a little, and you get to see a vastly different picture of our place in the world & that proud history of neutrality.

Where does a British radio direction finding base in Donegal, built to find Nazi subs, fit into the neutrality narrative?
Where do direct Irish & British Army comms links - designed with an eye towards the Cold War turning hot, fit into the neutrality narrative?

Whatever looking at a map says, whatever our shared culture & language says, whatever our lesser discussed history says... our imaginary bubble of neutrality suits our egos a lot better.

The boring political consideration at the moment is that SF & maybe even FF, would make a mountain out of DF participation in JW - eee gads, there goes our proud history of neutrality!

Elements of the media would lap it up and regurgitate it. They'd win votes on a platform of returning to the good old days of real neutrality, that never existed.

I say it a lot here because for me it summed up the SF view of the DF,; when the Air Corps got their 8 PC-9's - training aircraft - they complained loudly about them having NATO compatible hardpoints. The implication was that this was a sure sign that these were surely going to wind up in Iraq or the Russian border or something.

They got media time for that and were taken seriously.

In such a context, it begins to make sense why sending 100 odd troops, a couple of helicopters & ships over to the neighbours for a bit of training, becomes a political no-no.

[ropebag]

'thanks', but fcuk me, that is depressing shit.

does anyone fight back against this mono-view, or do they just keep their heads down and hope that somehow, magically, this political climate will change?

[morpheus]

You get shouted down by weight of numbers online - so much so - that you learn to just keep your head down and soldier on.

[pym]

'thanks', but fcuk me, that is depressing shit.

does anyone fight back against this mono-view, or do they just keep their heads down and hope that somehow, magically, this political climate will change?

On a political level - I don't see anyone confronting the constantly rehashed guff, but FG have mooted NATO membership in the past.

You do see relevant editorials in the papers occasionally. Old reports by the DF to their Governments of the day, crop up every so often:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/secret-plan-to-muster-army-of-500000-in-event-of-nuclear-war-ireland-was-ready-to-help-out-uk-26806742.html

DF participation in Combined Endeavour & other NATO/PfP exs is small, but it's happening. Deployment to Mali with the BA is small, but it's happening.

So things are slowly changing, but short of a perceived outside threat or some great economic incentive - it'll continue at glacial pace.

[apod]

Always good when people who have no fcuking clue about the reality of living in a particular country and how that country does things try to lecture people from that country about how behind the times they are!

I would love to go on a joint Ex as I am a professional soldier and I always look for new horizons and value benefiting from the experience of others.I believe some day we will participate in JW. We had a couple of guys at Cold response in Norway only a week or so ago.But at the moment if it got onto the six o clock news that the Government were sending troops and equipment,no matter how cheaply,to such an exercise when special needs kids are loosing their Teachers assistants,hospital beds are non existent,roads are falling apart and houses have been destroyed by flooding etc etc then that government may as well start clearing out their offices.
We would be exercising alright.For CRC ops!!

face it.The Irish peoples lowest priority is Defence.Plain and simple.We spend less on it that any other country in Europe which I find shamefull and embarrassing.But until someone rocks up on irish soil and tries to do a crimea nobody will give a fcuk about us

[sofa]

i know it is the politics of 'da brits' and 'imperialist running dogs', but i just don't understand why it has such traction?

i have watched German Armoured units exercise in Poland, i have watched Luftwaffe Tornado's fly over France - i just don't get how the Irish government, which is quite happy to talk about the EU BG's, about NATO pfp, about EU defence cooperation, about exercises in Sweden, just caves to this crap.

it is the one thing that utterly perplexes me about Ireland and its politics - i don't understand the hold such a small political minority has over governments of all colours.

When you look at the left in Ireland. It is made up by and large of middle class types who when in Uni joined some left wing group to be differant from there perants or to impress the chicks. They would have being brainwashed with anti American shit and all it's evils. Neutrality with them is all about not siding with the Americans. And in the shinners case, it is easer to control a people if they are isolated from the rest of modern society Nato EU etc, just like there mates do in backward Cuba
In a word, immature middleclass nobs

[pym]

Can follow bits of the movements on marinetraffic.com, if anyone is interested - gaggle of minesweepers making their way out from the Clyde: http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/...mmsi:205207000

[sofa]

i know it is the politics of 'da brits' and 'imperialist running dogs', but i just don't understand why it has such traction?

i have watched German Armoured units exercise in Poland, i have watched Luftwaffe Tornado's fly over France - i just don't get how the Irish government, which is quite happy to talk about the EU BG's, about NATO pfp, about EU defence cooperation, about exercises in Sweden, just caves to this crap.

it is the one thing that utterly perplexes me about Ireland and its politics - i don't understand the hold such a small political minority has over governments of all colours.

When you look at the left in Ireland. It is made up by and large of middle class types who when in Uni joined some left wing group to be differant from there perants or to impress the chicks. They would have being brainwashed with anti American shit and all it's evils. Neutrality with them is all about not siding with the Americans. And in the shinners case, it is easer to control a people if they are isolated from the rest of modern society Nato EU etc, just like there mates do in backward Cuba
It's all

[hptmurphy]

Lesser events have been factored in on patrols and we still carry out overseas courtesey calls so the economics of participating don't add up. Wasn't after last years exercise the NS teamed up with some of the participating vessels and carried out a few bits and pieces off the east coast and then they all came to Cork on the piss?

If we can work alongside the Brits in Africa surely we can exercise with them closer to home,

Selective symantics.

But then again if we had an actual minister for defence we might get a straight answer on the topic.

Anyone any feed back how the higher ups would react to involvement. I reckon the NS would be gagging fort full participation, after all the do turn up as observers, usually unannounced to some of these type of events.

SF are a by product of the recession and only exist as a reactionary party while people need a vehicle to focus their negativity on those in the hall s of power in any such events as recession etc.

Should the economy ever pick up and people reach a certain level of prosperity..their gone.....none of their economic policies make and sense, even to the most extreme socialists. Every cycle in politics had its cranks. Times were gtood we got the Greens, bad times.. SF... it'll all work out in the end.

the NS will have a few new ships in service in the foreseeble future and as with others will burst at the seams trying to show them off and create positivity around them to secure future builds.

Don't count out participation in this time of event in the future, we have indeed come along way.

[Flamingo]

Optimistic post there, Murph!