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Platoon OrBat & the LSW/GPMG debate

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  • #16
    It was definitely standardised as 8, it may have changed again

    That's why the AW139 only carry 8

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    • #17
      Of course, there is also a 42 round mag available for the Steyr, and a 100 round drum magazine (Beta Mag)compatible also, if thinking of going down the LSW route with a Steyr, as
      against having a GPMG as a section weapon

      ... and the drum magine below is $300 from this crowd. Buy in bulk, and the unit cost would surely reduce ?

      Last edited by Truck Driver; 26 April 2014, 17:27.
      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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      • #18
        Guys we have them magizines

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        • #19
          Originally posted by kaiser View Post
          Guys we have them magizines
          I'm surprised on a forum full of spotters (and recovering spotters in my own case) that everyone doesn't remember all of the early pics of the Squirrels with HBARs and C-Mags (prior to getting the minimi for Liberia)
          "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Come-quickly View Post
            I'm surprised on a forum full of spotters (and recovering spotters in my own case) that everyone doesn't remember all of the early pics of the Squirrels with HBARs and C-Mags (prior to getting the minimi for Liberia)
            Here's one.

            Attached Files

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            • #21
              The squirrels had Minimis long before Liberia

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              • #22
                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                The SRAAW and M203 has been added to the Section

                The overseas section is 8 strong
                True, but theses are minor additions. Despite minor tinkering with numbers over the years and changes in manuover group the principle of a 3 person FSG and 7/6/5 person assault group are fundamentally the same.

                As has been said, Mowag, AW139, etc. introduction would have been perfect opportunities to look at wholesale changes to section structure and following from that the weapons and firepower available/required.
                An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                • #23
                  It was looked at, they decided not to change.
                  "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                  • #24
                    Yes, was gonna say I'd never seen them in every day use - s'pose no real surprise the Wing are using them
                    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      doubt the ARW use them much nowadays......barely using Steyr as a rifle, never mind as LMG/LSW.

                      More likely just being stored in the gucchi stores. Probably beside one of these......

                      Last edited by X-RayOne; 27 April 2014, 23:44.
                      An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Forsvaret er i gang med at finde en afløser til det 50 år gamle maskingevær M62.


                        Hærens enheder får nyt let maskingevær (LMG), og valget er faldet på den amerikanske M60 E6 i kaliber 7,62 millimeter fra firmaet U.S. Ordnance


                        Some vidoes of the Danish army's trials to replace their section machine guns, between the HK 121 and the M 60E6, and the eventual winner the M 60E6

                        Intresting given the danes have lots of experience from Iraq and Afghanistan that the criteria they chose the winning design from

                        The M60E6 was chosen for the benefits it holds over the current M/62 MG3 which has been in use with the Danish Army since 1962:

                        - Weighs 9.35 kg, approx. 3 kg lighter than the M/62, with better weight distribution
                        - Better control of alternative shot positions, such as kneeling and standing
                        - Lower ROF of 550 RPM when compared with the M/62′s 1200 RPM, which improves shooter accuracy, reduces ammunition consumption, and significantly minimizes the risk of collateral damage
                        - Single shot capability
                        - Reduced recoil
                        - Picatinny rails allows for the addition of accessories such as tactical lights, lasers, etc.
                        - Stable adjustable stand
                        - Fast barrel change is possible without the use of gloves.

                        The Dames are also going for an optics and sensor package for daylight optics, thermal optics, red dot optics, tactical lights, tactical lasers, and laser range finders.

                        And now t0 cost, the Danes are looking at buying 700 of them and the whole package will weigh in at about 12 million, which aint bad.
                        Last edited by paul g; 28 April 2014, 01:03.

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                        • #27
                          The reason that I raised the idea of the Steyr LMG option (under the 'New rifle or upgrade' thread) was the simple, intuitive theory that there should be available to troops, some middle ground weapon bridging the gap between the individual rifleman, and the intervening distance to the usually much different and significantly heavier, crew served supporting weapon with a very high &/or sustained rate of fire (ROF) of a belt-fed, full power rifle ammunition weapon.

                          That the options of LMGs and larger, belt-fed machineguns have co-existed before, and existed for many years, in many different theatres and with a number of different armies just proves this theory IMHO. Good ideas do not go away you could say, though fashions can change (and doctrines, like corporate strategies, are often enough just 'fashion'...or the best 'new idea' or practice...e.g. how often has CPR practice changed?). I'm referring to the families of weapons employed from just before, during, and years after, WW2 (but with their earliest forms from WW1).

                          These weapon families were known of course by the 'outmoded' but perfectly logical, and functional terms of LMG, MMG and HMG (light, medium and heavy machineguns). The LMG term and role was otherwise dressed up in modern decades as LSW and SAW.

                          In World war 1 the British had their LMG and HMG - Lewis and Vickers MGs, the French had their own equivalent. Before WW2 and until the early stages of the Vietnam War, the US had the LMG and MMG/HMG of the BAR and M1919(?) respectively, and the British and allies had the famous Bren and Vickers LMG and MMG/HMG (and pretty much all the other European nations had the same type families). It is important to note that while the ordinary infantry usually did have bolt actions rifles (except the US with semi-autos) (and in the latter years the US, German and i think, Russian troops with semi-auto rifles) that all of the belligerents also had generous provisions of sub-machine guns. The point, that it is not as if automatic fire (or near automatic) was not already available to them via their ordinary infantry and with crew served MMGs/HMGs, but they still nearly all though it necessary through much experience to still deploy LMGs. It was noted it seems, that in the Vietnam era, that with the US introduction of the M16 rifle (with too high a rate of fire) and M60 MMG with too low a rate of fire, but also too heavy, and too awkward for sections/squads in jungles...that they had lost the valuable 'light support' middle ground of the 'BAR' rifle/LMG.

                          As infantry weaponry and tactics have not fundamentally changed over many, many decades, and neither has human anatomy (in terms of carrying weight etc.) and that bullets are still not cheap, and finance is still an issue, that how could a type of weapon and role that lasted for decades really and truly no longer have a place? It probably did, and that is why the US reintroduced the concept with the (Belgian designed) Minimi, and the Russians never stopped employing both LMG/MMGs (the PK) along with LMGs (RPDs then RPKs).

                          It seemed to me for a long time, that the theory of the LMG did not match the high rate of fire (ROF) of the Minimi- and because of the small size (and so recoil) of the bullets, and high capacity feeds (belts in boxes) that it was just too easy to fire automatically - and so human nature would be to fire it too fast, and employ it like it was doing the MMG's job of fire support. Note historically, that the Thomson sub-machinegun, MG42s MMG/MG, and M16s rifles all eventually had their high rates of fire reduced by manufacture design.

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                          • #28
                            Finally (!) continuing above stream of thought, i've wondered, considering how human nature and anatomy has not changed since WW1, and basic infantry tactics had not really changed either, that decades of everyone's experience with relatively 'low' rate of fire (ROF) sub-machineguns and LMGs; had not translated into 5.56mm automatic rifles, and LMG type weapons with similarly 'low' rates of fire. Bearing in mind that even a 'low' (cyclic) rate of fire of 600 rounds per minute is equal to 10 rounds a second..so why was 750+ the usual standard?

                            Though the Russians, i presume being more pragmatic, have used a lower cyclic levels of fire for all of their rifles, LMGs and MMGs since WW2.

                            Which made me think that, if the army here were to employ the Western ubiquitous FN Minimi brand LMG (or better, the Daewoo K3 near clone), that it try to attain a version that had a Bren LMG/ Gustav sub-machine et al, ROF of 550 rounds per minute, or even 500... suitable to its LMG role and individual soldier deployment.

                            Another significant reason for such a 'low' ROF would be that using rifle magazines, from the Steyr rifles, would become a far more feasible prospect. This is due to the fact that the required strength of the feed required to pull in the belts of ammunition for an ROF of 750 results in a ROF of it seems, of 250-300 rounds more cyclically per minute than when using the easier to feed from magazines (see the belt vs. magazine differentials for the VZ.52, minimi and K3..if I've read correctly).

                            Assuming that the DOD would never go as far as purchasing 2 Minimi/K3 LMGs per (tripartite/ three way split) section along with the 'MAG' MMG...a K3 and a Steyr rifle based LMG might be a little closer to a possible reality. The K3 could then also use the extended magazines from the Steyr LMGs, and the ordinary rifle magazines (besides using belt ammunition).

                            I keep mentioning the Daewoo K3 as, I've always imagined that the FN company would not acquiesce to changing their production facilities to make the Minimi compatible to the AUG magazines. Daewoo however, seeking to break into the Asiatic AUG armed armies, might do. Also, I'd imagine that a premium price would be paid for FN Minimis.
                            Also, K3s seem to have a longer barrel but in the same equivalent overall length.

                            If by way of comparison, CIE here, can spend hundreds of millions going against the European grain, and purchase Japenese and then Korean trains, i do not see why the military could not do something similarly 'brave'?

                            Again, it is dificult to see anything other than advantages to changing part of the upgrade order with Steyr-Mannlicher (seeing as the Dept. of Defence plumbed for the premium supplier) to provide AUG LMG kits as upgrades, to mirror the existing MMGs in the Army's infantry sections?

                            LMGs have had a long life, and are again it seems, being reinvented. Why not take the opportunity right now, to acquire them again (with a small bi-pod/foregrip change previously mentioned) via the already long since existing, purposely designed version of the standard rifle? Extremely few other armies would have the same opportunity, and it would easily maximise the AUG inventory in the army here.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
                              doubt the ARW use them much nowadays......barely using Steyr as a rifle, never mind as LMG/LSW.

                              More likely just being stored in the gucchi stores. Probably beside one of these......

                              They've been booting around the Curragh Camp recently in some very gucci sand coloured quads
                              "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Beta C mags are very prone to stoppages.The wing no longer use them.
                                PSO section strength is 10 troops. 8 dismounts and two APC crew.That is doctrine and SOP.
                                We kept the MAG after our experience in Timor and the advice from both the Aussies and Kiwis who lamented getting rid of theirs.We only bought the new model 3-4 years ago.No change coming anytime soon.
                                The wing first got the Minimi and M203 for Timor.
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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