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  • Where are we going with this?
    Are we actually saying that there are serious steps being taken to submit a new tender to replace the FFR fleet?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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    • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
      Where are we going with this?
      Are we actually saying that there are serious steps being taken to submit a new tender to replace the FFR fleet?
      There should be one coming soon.

      I was talking to one of the mechanics in the job today about 4wds.
      He is ex-BA and has had a lot of experience with "mil spec" vehicles.
      Actually he laughed at me when I mentioned mil spec. To the best of his knowledge the only mil spec on vehicles is ballistic protection.
      Level 1 is provided by flack jackets not by the vehicle.
      But more interestingly he claimed that DF does tender for spares and support for all vehicles.
      The supplier must hold a reserve of spare parts ready to be drawn.
      Ireland will never get Mercs of any description again because the Merc fleet management company in Ireland can't give them the level of service required in the tender. We would have to be supported by the UK or European network.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Saab View Post
        There should be one coming soon.

        I was talking to one of the mechanics in the job today about 4wds.
        He is ex-BA and has had a lot of experience with "mil spec" vehicles.
        Actually he laughed at me when I mentioned mil spec. To the best of his knowledge the only mil spec on vehicles is ballistic protection.
        Level 1 is provided by flack jackets not by the vehicle.
        But more interestingly he claimed that DF does tender for spares and support for all vehicles.
        The supplier must hold a reserve of spare parts ready to be drawn.
        Ireland will never get Mercs of any description again because the Merc fleet management company in Ireland can't give them the level of service required in the tender. We would have to be supported by the UK or European network.
        I suppose it would be a vehicle that meets some/all mil spec really

        There are STANAGs for everything, that is a spec issued by NATO.

        As I said a number of times, the DF issues separate tenders for spares separately, here is the contract award notice for Ford spares http://ireland-tenders.eu/2052_Suppl...ts_2013_Dublin

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        • So far I haven't heard of a vehicle the DF has used that wasn't complained about for some reason
          Mercedes 1180 TCV....

          MAN 4 x 4 TCV

          There were some very good purchases, again the First series Nissan were excellent, off road they were very capable if you had the right driver and had done the right preparation, so much so Nissan re opened the production line to cater for the DFs needs!
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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          • The new "beast" is a MAN isn't it?

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            • Originally posted by Saab View Post
              So far I haven't heard of a vehicle the DF has used that wasn't complained about for some reason.
              110 - steering problems
              Land cruiser - unstable off road - roll over
              Nissan - poor off road handling
              Pajero - too small - GC and width.
              it might be crude - but the Land Rover Wolf overcomes all of those problems - and it looks like a military vehicle because it is one.



              you can bolt anything to them as and when required and they're a decent workhorse, or utility vehicle or anything you want really - strip it down and turn it into a Recce vehicle or beef it up and turn it into a WMIK.
              Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 12 June 2014, 17:39.
              RGJ

              ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

              The Rifles

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              • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                Mercedes 1180 TCV....
                #
                you mean the ones that were all off the road within 6 months?

                MAN 4 x 4 TCV
                Do you mean the original ones that were considered total heaps. With their squat VW cab??
                Or the next generation with the square cabs that had no isolater and the batteries kept going dead?

                But they are not LTCVs they are HTCVs

                First series Nissan were excellent
                I know at least 3 drivers from Bde Tpt that would say otherwise.

                But then I never said any of the moaning was legitimate.
                IMHO liking a vehicle is a personal thing.
                I learned in the Nissan. I liked it. Even though it had starting trouble.

                RGJ that reminds me of a story one of our Sgts tells about the Bedford 4x4
                The Df bought the same as the BA.
                Only where as the BA bought the gear to build up the trucks the DF never did.
                The then decided that since they didn't have the build up gear they could get a smaller engine.
                Which in turn meant they could never be built up.
                My money is if they went for the wolf exactly the same would happen.
                Last edited by Saab; 12 June 2014, 17:46.

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                • Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                  it might be crude - but the Land Rover Wolf overcomes all of those problems - and it looks like a military vehicle because it is one.



                  you can bolt anything to them as and when required and they're a decent workhorse, or utility vehicle or anything you want really - strip it down and turn it into a Recce vehicle or beef it up and turn it into a WMIK.
                  The ARW would seriously disagree with you. A converted landie killed one operator, seriously injured another 2 with career changing injuries.
                  Its no more a military vehicle than the Patrol, Land Cruiser or Pajero. Even the BA don't use the provided engine.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                    it might be crude - but the Land Rover Wolf overcomes all of those problems - and it looks like a military vehicle because it is one.



                    you can bolt anything to them as and when required and they're a decent workhorse, or utility vehicle or anything you want really - strip it down and turn it into a Recce vehicle or beef it up and turn it into a WMIK.
                    Does it come as a station wagon?
                    The DF has lost people at home and in Lebanon in soft tops?

                    What kind of seats in the rear?

                    As Saab said it would tick the overseas and tactical boxes but not the ATCP, what about the troops in the back when it's doing 100, from Dublin to Portlaoise? The noise, the risk of rollover, no visibility to the sides

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Saab View Post
                      #
                      you mean the ones that were all off the road within 6 months?


                      Do you mean the original ones that were considered total heaps. With their squat VW cab??
                      Or the next generation with the square cabs that had no isolater and the batteries kept going dead?

                      But they are not LTCVs they are HTCVs


                      I know at least 3 drivers from Bde Tpt that would say otherwise.

                      But then I never said any of the moaning was legitimate.
                      IMHO liking a vehicle is a personal thing.
                      I learned in the Nissan. I liked it. Even though it had starting trouble.

                      RGJ that reminds me of a story one of our Sgts tells about the Bedford 4x4
                      The Df bought the same as the BA.
                      Only where as the BA bought the gear to build up the trucks the DF never did.
                      The then decided that since they didn't have the build up gear they could get a smaller engine.
                      Which in turn meant they could never be built up.
                      My money is if they went for the wolf exactly the same would happen.
                      Which Bedfords?

                      The ones bought in 1970 were the MFR2

                      The British Army had MKs (very different)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                        The ARW would seriously disagree with you. A converted landie killed one operator, seriously injured another 2 with career changing injuries.
                        Its no more a military vehicle than the Patrol, Land Cruiser or Pajero. Even the BA don't use the provided engine.
                        Wolf wasn't around then in fairness

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                          The ARW would seriously disagree with you. A converted landie killed one operator, seriously injured another 2 with career changing injuries.
                          Its no more a military vehicle than the Patrol, Land Cruiser or Pajero. Even the BA don't use the provided engine.
                          The ARW were using a converted civilian Land Rover. Nothing like the one the MOB use. Course it did not work, resulting is a death.

                          MOB's have different running gear, axles, chassis, etc etc ad nauseum. DF did what they always do. Took the cheap option, didn't work (again) someone died.
                          Last edited by FMP; 12 June 2014, 21:53.
                          We travel not for trafficking alone,
                          By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                          For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                          We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            Wolf wasn't around then in fairness
                            The Land rover that overturned in Liberia was ordered as a "Wolf" variant. whether that's what was delivered i'll leave to others, but the ones that are still in the fleet are, ironically enough, being used as funeral vehicles for towing the gun carriage etc. and are nothing to right home about.

                            As someone who actually is involved with the maintenance of our fleet I have kept out of this discussion under the heading "don't get me started", but all i'll say is we've bought some serious sh*te in the last 10 years but the suggestions in this discussion fit into the Walter Mitty category. We don't have the money as country and even if we did there is no way it would be spent on DF vehicles.

                            The only suggestion that made any sense was the inclusion of a maintenance contract when buying the vehicles. But this was tried before, after we began getting the old Nissan Patrol 260's in '89 it was suggested that we would lease vehicles on either a 3 or 5 year term, and anything other than basic servicing would be the responsibility of the Manufacturer. The contract price was trashed out but when they Dept of Finance saw the price they shot it down immediately. FMP is full of examples of procurement tales from other Military organisations but he forgets to take into account that (AFAIR) the DF are the least resourced military in Europe as a percentage of GNP.

                            When it's time for cuts we're first on the block, and we will never have the money, or political will to buy vehicles in the numbers required to replace the entire fleet over the next 5 years. When you only buy 50 odd of the more numerous vehicles each year, by the time you reach the end of the contract the vehicle will have gone through changes as a result of the manufacturer upgrading models (the Patrol GR being a prime case). The cure for this to specify that all the vehicles for the life of the contract be the same, but this leads to other problems, we have such a small fleet that what happens is that they do a production run to our specs, all in one go (400-500), and you end up getting 5 year old vehicles being delivered as new, this is what happened with the last 2 years of Patrol 260 deliveries, although that was because they no longer made them, rather than any contractual stipulation. For whatever reason we ended up getting vehicles that had spent 5 years sitting in a yard somewhere



                            As i said " Don't get me started" we could be here all night.
                            Last edited by REX; 12 June 2014, 22:06.
                            CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

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                            • Originally posted by REX View Post
                              The Land rover that overturned in Liberia was ordered as a "Wolf" variant. whether that's what was delivered i'll leave to others, but the ones that are still in the fleet are, ironically enough, being used as funeral vehicles for towing the gun carriage etc. and are nothing to right home about.

                              As someone who actually is involved with the maintenance of our fleet I have kept out of this discussion under the heading "don't get me started", but all i'll say is we've bought some serious sh*te in the last 10 years but the suggestions in this discussion fit into the Walter Mitty category. We don't have the money as country and even if we did there is no way it would be spent on DF vehicles.

                              The only suggestion that made any sense was the inclusion of a maintenance contract when buying the vehicles. But this was tried before, after we began getting the old Nissan Patrol 260's in '89 it was suggested that we would lease vehicles on either a 3 or 5 year term, and anything other than basic servicing would be the responsibility of the Manufacturer. The contract price was trashed out but when they Dept of Finance saw the price they shot it down immediately. FMP is full of examples of procurement tales from other Military organisations but he forgets to take into account that (AFAIR) the DF are the least resourced military in Europe as a percentage of GNP.

                              When it's time for cuts we're first on the block, and we will never have the money, or political will to buy vehicles in the numbers required to replace the entire fleet over the next 5 years. When you only buy 50 odd of the more numerous vehicles each year, by the time you reach the end of the contract the vehicle will have gone through changes as a result of the manufacturer upgrading models (the Patrol GR being a prime case). The cure for this to specify that all the vehicles for the life of the contract be the same, but this leads to other problems, we have such a small fleet that what happens is that they do a production run to our specs, all in one go (400-500), and you end up getting 5 year old vehicles being delivered as new, this is what happened with the last 2 years of Patrol 260 deliveries, although that was because they no longer made them, rather than any contractual stipulation. For whatever reason we ended up getting vehicles that had spent 5 years sitting in a yard somewhere
                              Perhaps you should read my post on the NZ Army. A tiny little army half the size of Ireland's, if they can do it,,,,,,,. I threw my cards on the table as a suggestion and have highlighted how it could be done. How it should be done. Or let me guess, everyone else is wrong and the DF is the only one to actually really get it right. I know that's not true!

                              No offence to the majority because this is highly enjoyable but the whole forum is Walter. Do you not realise that? Its a bunch of lads having a natter about this and that which they will have absolutely no influence over whatsoever. Things that interest them. The majority enjoy the banter and maybe one or two even learn something new. I'm 46 and learn something new every day. I enjoy the banter. Whats the problem?

                              We all know procurement is kak. We all know just about every vehicle ever bought was a disaster. We all know they will keep buying civilian vehicles, paint them green and call them MOB. We all know they will never get it right. We have been saying it for the last 7 or 8 pages. So Walter away a brew break why don't you!
                              Last edited by FMP; 12 June 2014, 22:45.
                              We travel not for trafficking alone,
                              By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                              For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                              We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FMP View Post
                                Perhaps you should read my post on the NZ Army. Or are you a bit like Saab and only see and quote what will help support your argument. I threw my cards on the table as a suggestion and have highlighted how it could be done. How it should be done. Or let me guess, everyone else is wrong and the DF is the only one to actually really get it right.

                                No offence to the majority because it is highly enjoyable but the whole forum is "Walter". Do you not realise that? Its a bunch of lads having a natter about this and that which they will have absolutely no influence over whatsoever. Things that interest them, if your upset by it,,,, leave. The majority enjoy the banter and maybe one or two even learn something new. I'm 46 and learn something new every day.
                                My God you're a touchy bugger! I referred to all the examples you gave (which of course includes NZ), these are examples of doing it the right way, but with our financial reality it's just pie in the sky to suggest we follow their example. I never said that everyone else is wrong and the DF is right, just the opposite I would have thought, although I restrained myself as, unlike many here, I have to go into Bks every day and face the music if i type something too harsh.

                                As for the whole Forum being "Walter", speak for yourself, there have been many interesting & informative discussions here. As a comparative red arse at only 45 I would have to say you've been very chilidsh in your reply attacking any body who does not row in behind your buy German campaign, some of us want to keep in the real world about solutions that could actually happen, and the G-wagon does not fall into that category. You might at some stage see one off purchases for very specialised roles, but I'll eat my Beret if we ever see a fleet replacement based on the G-Wagon! You'll have to wait for your sales commission
                                CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

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