G Wagons really are a great bit of kit.
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Pajero Replacement?
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Originally posted by DeV View PostIf you go for a 4 seater you will need 2 4x4s in a 81 & HMG detachment and 2 drivers in the crew instead of 1
DeV, that's a 105 crew mate and the rest! How many bod's you got on your tubes and HMG's? SOP in the MOB is 3, on 81's, HMG, GPMG SF, Milan (in its day) and Javelin. And that's in the light role (man pack). If the driver is part of the crew and there not just to drive that still gives you a 4 man crew. Maybe a look at the ORBAT is in order as well as the fleet that transports them. That sounds very manpower heavy mate, what are the reasons for such large crews? (Possibly for a different thread).
Talking vehicles again and best case scenario The G station Wagon in 4 seat configuration would give you room down the centerline for your tube (HMG, GPMG etc (on a nice bracket to keep it safe) baseplate, legs, sight and ancillaries against the side panels again on nice brackets, and you still have room for bomb's and ammo too. Cut out the trailer where possible. Apply same principle to other CSW's. The only one that would defo need a trailer is Javelin (and RBS 70) due to the massive bloody transit containers for the missile. If a smaller crew was viable of course (again not sure why your crews are so large).
Then when all that war fighting kit was safe in the armoury you have your GS vehicle to do all your other "light" ATCP/A duties.We travel not for trafficking alone,
By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
For lust of knowing what should not be known,
We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.
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Originally posted by The real Jack View PostMinistry of bombs?We travel not for trafficking alone,
By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
For lust of knowing what should not be known,
We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.
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I don't know a lot about the current crop of military 4WD (my practical experience ended with Landrover 110's), but I can tell you exactly why the G-Wagen will NEVER be bought - can you see any politician of the current (or future) Dail having headlines "The Army are getting Mercs" while the voters are screaming at them about not getting a medical card?
Sorry guys, if they were half the cost of the Nissans they are not happening.'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html
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It would appear from the numbers suggested for crew served weapons that the current vehicle ,the Pajero, is not fit for purpose, but then again the weapons are normally carried as trailer load again a pain in the bum.
The singular 4x4 in as in service is very limited in that case and we possibly need to look at second level of vehicle for deployment of such weapons, or do we as trailers etc are fine for transport purposes during training and exercise type ops.
So do we need a second level vehicle something along the lines of ACMAT VLRA or Pinzgauer and retain Pajero etc specifically for ATCP/A and as GS vehicles?
I would suggest if the Pajeros are suffering broken axles that they are being overloaded and driven over terrain they are suited to while loaded possibly above that which is judged to be appropriate for a vehicle this size.
One would have to ask did we buy a vehicle with a mil spec that would have taken into account a military work load or did we buy a commercial SUV with a spec more suited to an outdoors type person without. I suspect we bought an SUV that looked good on paper which wasn't subjected to the loads that would encountered by an exercising military force.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by FMP View PostHoly catfish Batman!!!!
DeV, that's a 105 crew mate and the rest! How many bod's you got on your tubes and HMG's? SOP in the MOB is 3, on 81's, HMG, GPMG SF, Milan (in its day) and Javelin. And that's in the light role (man pack). If the driver is part of the crew and there not just to drive that still gives you a 4 man crew. Maybe a look at the ORBAT is in order as well as the fleet that transports them. That sounds very manpower heavy mate, what are the reasons for such large crews? (Possibly for a different thread).
Talking vehicles again and best case scenario The G station Wagon in 4 seat configuration would give you room down the centerline for your tube (HMG, GPMG etc (on a nice bracket to keep it safe) baseplate, legs, sight and ancillaries against the side panels again on nice brackets, and you still have room for bomb's and ammo too. Cut out the trailer where possible. Apply same principle to other CSW's. The only one that would defo need a trailer is Javelin (and RBS 70) due to the massive bloody transit containers for the missile. If a smaller crew was viable of course (again not sure why your crews are so large).
Then when all that war fighting kit was safe in the armoury you have your GS vehicle to do all your other "light" ATCP/A duties.
Crew on a 81 is 5 (including Det Cmdr & driver)
Changing the crew could be done but it has advantages
The advantage (bearing in mind I'm not a mortar man):
- someone else to spare the listening watch with (rotate with crew)
- someone else to help manpack it (and more importantly the ammo)
- organic transport for either transport weapon and/or ammo
The 81 goes in a trailer in brackets for barrel, bipod, baseplate etc (sights are probably carried)
Same with the HMG
If you need to get the wpn to somewhere the trailer won't go, open trailer and manpack it
You will not fit 4 crew, personal kit, 81 and 1st line ammo into a G-Wagen without a trailer (even with the roof rack (which could be good for personal kit)). The first line ammo (in the public domain) is something like 150 rounds (I could be wrong on that).
It isn't good VFM to have a load of vehicles for the day to day work and then another load (off a different type) for exercises/opsLast edited by DeV; 3 June 2014, 12:43.
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Originally posted by Flamingo View PostI don't know a lot about the current crop of military 4WD (my practical experience ended with Landrover 110's), but I can tell you exactly why the G-Wagen will NEVER be bought - can you see any politician of the current (or future) Dail having headlines "The Army are getting Mercs" while the voters are screaming at them about not getting a medical card?
Sorry guys, if they were half the cost of the Nissans they are not happening.We travel not for trafficking alone,
By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
For lust of knowing what should not be known,
We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.
- Likes 1
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"The Army are getting Mercs"
But in fairness they were a great purchase.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by DeV View PostThis is in the public domain so:
Crew on a 81 is 5 (including Det Cmdr & driver)
Changing the crew could be done but it has advantages
The advantage (bearing in mind I'm not a mortar man):
- someone else to spare the listening watch with (rotate with crew)
- someone else to help manpack it (and more importantly the ammo)
- organic transport for either transport weapon and/or ammo
The 81 goes in a trailer in brackets for barrel, bipod, baseplate etc (sights are probably carried)
Same with the HMG
If you need to get the wpn to somewhere the trailer won't go, open trailer and manpack it
You will not fit 4 crew, personal kit, 81 and 1st line ammo into a G-Wagen without a trailer (even with the roof rack (which could be good for personal kit)). The first line ammo (in the public domain) is something like 150 rounds (I could be wrong on that).
It isn't good VFM to have a load of vehicles for the day to day work and then another load (off a different type) for exercises/opsWe travel not for trafficking alone,
By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
For lust of knowing what should not be known,
We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.
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It isn't good VFM to have a load of vehicles for the day to day work and then another load (off a different type) for exercises/opsCovid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by DeV View PostWhich is why what should be bought should be something suit for long range patrols the "roads" of Liberia as well as ATCP ops in Dublin
Given the parameters mentioned around crew served weapons and the limitations of SUV type vehicles and the extremities of the environments described and cost , to include running costs ,replacements and purchase I don't think there is one vehicle that can practically address every scenario.
The G Wagen especially the family of vehicles as in service with the Australians would suggest that a package centred around that family is the better option than trying to make one vehicle take on roles it may not prove suitable for.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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