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  • I think CTU was trying to say that they do the same job with similar vehicles
    Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

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    • Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
      Difference being that these ploice escorts are probably armed
      Our conventional Gardai are unarmed
      Which is why the army is used as back up.

      Originally posted by spider pig View Post
      I think CTU was trying to say that they do the same job with similar vehicles
      Exactly, If the UK police can do armed escorts with "civvie 4x4s" why does RGJ think that the army shouldn't do it in Ireland.
      Last edited by CTU; 10 July 2014, 21:43.
      It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
      It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
      It was a new age...It was the end of history.
      It was the year everything changed.

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      • and ONH do a fantastic job at it while deployed on foot out of their vehicles.

        but tell me how can they do this sat inside a Transit Van or glorified civvie 4x4?

        they cannot.

        we had armoured vehicles, and vehicles we could effectively return fire from in order to be able to provide protection whilst mobile - because the threat doesn't stop when you start moving.

        ONH lose this capability and the protection afforded to the Garda ceases as soon as they get back on the bus.
        All depends on what the threat or hostile action is.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
          How ?

          Can the occupants fire under complete cover? No, there are no firing points, only the driver and co-driver can see to the sides

          The top cover's head and upper body is provided armour protection (the same as our guys) helmet & body armour
          The same for the tail end Charlie, except he doesn't get lower body protection because the back door(s) are open
          The occupants of Snatch aren't significantly better off
          It wouldn't stand up to an RPG either
          Dev - 'Top Cover' is a proven method of affording an armed and effective presence on a moving and especially static vehicle.

          Unlike being sat inside a bog standard 4x4 where the men are exposed (unless behind armour - they are exposed) from head to toe - men on Top Cover have only the very uppermost part of the body and head exposed and the soldiers have 360deg arcs of fire.

          this would be a good 60 - 70% less of the body exposed compared to those sat in an armoured 4x4 and what is exposed is ready to react with the weapon in the shoulder and the utmost situational awareness - that akin to a motor cyclist versus a car driver.

          We don't do Top Cover because to looks cool - it isn't - it's effective.

          you don't need covered firing ports for this duty - nearly every other Army has copied us and put men on top of lightly armoured vehicles in any vehicle designed to offer protection and an effective response.

          the armoured (albeit lightly) cockpit for the commander and driver also affords protection from small arms fire - which must be a threat to any CIT duty or else the ONH wouldn't be armed.

          The combination of a lightly armoured vehicle and men on top cover is the best compromise while affording the maximum situational awareness and effective response.

          Men sat side by side in an unprotected 4x4 are simply Men in Transit themselves and offer the Garda and themselves absolutely no protection.

          I can't see how anyone can even try argue the case that very effective armed soldiers who whilst deployed on foot when static can be in any way effective as soon as they get inside that vehicle which is not fit for purpose.

          Snatch was great in Northern Ireland - very effective against small arms fire and pretty effective at the start of TELIC against small IED's but it too soon became unfit for purpose when devices became bigger and better so we binned them - but we still kept men in Top Cover on all of its replacements.

          a similar vehicle would be great for ONH in such duties as CIT or Prisoner Escorts.

          but an unarmoured civvie 4x4 will never be effective against any small arms fire - which in reality is the main threat while in CIT, or it would not require armed soldiers to conduct it.

          Remember we have been bitten many times, you just haven't been bitten.
          Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 10 July 2014, 23:01.
          RGJ

          ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

          The Rifles

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            They would have to be to run SINCGARS wouldn't they?
            yes all of the vehicle mil comms equipment that I came used used 24v.

            My reason for asking is that back in the day there was a Land Rover CFR "Converted for Radio". It had 2 electrical systems 12v for the vehicle electrics and 24v for the radios. It was not a great success, very difficult to work on.

            I was wondering if the same mistake was being made again
            Last edited by B Inman; 10 July 2014, 23:19.

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            • We've gone through this, at length, on at least 1 previous occasion RGJ

              It suits us and is effective

              In the years 2004-2009, there were 256 CIT robberies

              CIT Escorts annually around 2000

              Attempts on DF escorted CIT since they started around 40 years ago?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by B Inman View Post

                My reason for asking is that back in the day there was a Land Rover CFR "Converted for Radio". It had 2 electrical systems 12v for the vehicle electrics and 24v for the radios. It was not a great success, very difficult to work on.

                I was wondering if the same mistake was being made again
                Almost certainly . Bearing in mind I am an outsider,,,,,,,but, past performance being a good indicator of future performance,,,,,,
                We travel not for trafficking alone,
                By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post

                  on countless occasions we have had the target and escorting vehicles shot at / IED'd / ambushed whilst providing this duty - what experience does ONH have of it's target or escort vehicles ever being contacted during escort duties? very little in comparison.
                  Therein lies your answer RGJ. Risk assessment: Threat, Vulnerability, Lightlyhood. Mitigation! Post mitigation risk = ???????????.

                  That's how it works mate, as you well know.

                  I don't wish to post a Bio but,,,,,,

                  I am not, nor have I ever been ONH. I am former HM Forces. I have done the NI lark many times and a bunch of other joyous locations. I have spent the last decade in Afghanistan, Iraq and now Africa as a contractor (CP/Convoys/VIT respectively). I have been on the receiving end of every kind of nastyness associated with these locations. Risk assessments are part and parcel of everyday life here. The "Threat" phase being all important.

                  You cannot apply the same "Threat" from one location/task to another. Each has to be gauged on its individual circumstances. For me to say "Well in Afghanistan we did it like this" is pointless when were talking about moving a sum of Euros from central AIB in Cork to its regional branches throughout the county.

                  In regards to the question posted by DeV: "Attempts on DF escorted CIT since they started around 40 years ago?"

                  I don't know the answer, but I'm willing to bet its ZERO!

                  Post mitigation risk = Extremely Low.

                  Now lets get back to the topic eh? That poxey bloody Pajero and all the issues associated with the procurement of a replacement.
                  We travel not for trafficking alone,
                  By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                  For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                  We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by spider pig View Post
                    Drug tests for everyone who thinks a transit should be used 😜
                    I resemble that remark
                    We travel not for trafficking alone,
                    By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                    For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                    We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FMP View Post
                      That's how it works mate, as you well know...

                      You cannot apply the same "Threat" from one location/task to another. Each has to be gauged on its individual circumstances. For me to say "Well in Afghanistan we did it like this" is pointless when were talking about moving a sum of Euros from central AIB in Cork to its regional branches throughout the county.

                      Now lets get back to the topic eh? That poxey bloody Pajero and all the issues associated with the procurement of a replacement.
                      FMP, nice to have another ex-Squaddie onboard, welcome.

                      my point is - following said risk assessment - it has been deemed that there is clearly a threat that requires boots on the ground when static with the men dismounted. but does that same threat disappear as soon as they get back in the vehicle and are either stuck in traffic or negotiating smaller country roads? no it doesn't - and the men should still be able to counter that threat whilst mobile - and they cannot do this in a standard 4x4.

                      and to that end - given that CIT is a real and ongoing task to counter an ongoing threat (based on a risk assessment that requires armed soldiers) - this should be taken into consideration in deciding a new vehicle for ONH which would be able to provide some tactical capability and not just be an admin vehicle used as a taxi during a live task which has a requirement.

                      given your experience in Iraq / Afghan - you will know only too well that travelling 4 up in an unarmoured vehicle is not an option where there is even the slightest threat of being engaged, and in some instances you may have had a man in the boot facing rearwards with a Minimi, and in some cases PSD's conduct their own Top Cover from suitable vehicles.

                      i'm not saying Ireland is Iraq - but if you need armed men to perform a task - then the requirements are the same whether static or mobile.

                      even if the replacement for the Pajero isn't lightly armoured (or perhaps could have applique armour added for overseas tasks) - at least give the next replacement some sort of Top Cover capability (like a hatch above the boot area).

                      if there is a threat - you must be able to counter it whilst static, and mobile, and hopefully this will be taken into consideration for the replacement which will be used to conduct armed escort duties.

                      that's all i am saying on this.
                      RGJ

                      ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                      The Rifles

                      Comment


                      • even if the replacement for the Pajero isn't lightly armoured (or perhaps could have applique armour added for overseas tasks
                        It would seem the fault with pajeros only started after the fitted it with an independant suspension system, the older models were quite rugged

                        The earlier Pajeros were almost identical to the earlier nissans.

                        I was wondering if the same mistake was being made again
                        Sure why not, they are well capable of making the same fcuk up twice!
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • This obsession with Cit is funny, given that usage of cash is in decline internationally, and that is being felt in ireland.

                          Frankly lots of bank branches are withdrawing their cash services to business customers and if anybody is following the G4S share price saga then they are in decline because cash deliveries are falling. We usae a lots less cash and that process is going to intensify

                          The threat to cash shipments today come from criminals, not terrorists. There is an optic here, patrolling the streets of Dublin in armoured vehicles would not be politically acceptable and would give the wrong impression, patrolling Belfast in them is different, Belfast after all is british, but not quite. Hence why its perfectably acceptable to use plastic bullets, CS gas and water cannon on people in Belfast but not in London, Manchester, Chester or Croydon,

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                          • You have to realise that CIT escort is 99% deterrent, so a civvy 4x4 is more than adequate. There is absolutely no history of escorted cash shipments getting hit by subversives for one simple reason-the escort itself.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by B Inman View Post
                              yes all of the vehicle mil comms equipment that I came used used 24v.

                              My reason for asking is that back in the day there was a Land Rover CFR "Converted for Radio". It had 2 electrical systems 12v for the vehicle electrics and 24v for the radios. It was not a great success, very difficult to work on.

                              I was wondering if the same mistake was being made again
                              There have been no 24 volt FFRs in general service since the demise of the old SD33 (1st gen) Nissan Patrols. On the Patrol RD28s (2nd gen) there was a 24 volt alternator fitted, as an ancillary. The Patrol GRs (3rd gen) stepped up to the modern age and used electronics to step up the voltage to 24 volt for the Radios, something that the Pajero have continued quite successfully.
                              CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

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                              • MOD: Just a gentle reminder on OPSEC people.What YOU might consider is public knowledge may not be.A lot of information and intelligence can be gleaned by those with nefarious purposes simply be reading threads such as this if people are careless.I think the conversation is straying a little too far in that direction with regard to discussion of armour capabilities,deployment drills etc.Lets bring things back down a notch and keep it clean people.OK.
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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