Thanks Thanks:  139
Likes Likes:  348
Dislikes Dislikes:  7
Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast
Results 201 to 225 of 257

Thread: jadotVille

  1. #201
    Lt General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,365
    Post Thanks / Like
    It didn't suit the narrative...
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  2. #202
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Compare this to Rourke Drift. Held out for only a day, and the British establishment stated lashing out the medals (11 VCs).

    as a distraction for what happened earlier in the day.

    Establishment here covered up there incompetencs by not putting the truth out about the fight the MEN of A company put up.
    It hasnt gone away when you consider what similiarly happened to the Tramore Four. After WW2 a fair few BA-RN-RAF ex POW'S were decorated for the show they kept up whilst in captivity.

  3. Likes terrier liked this post
  4. #203
    BQMS
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    609
    Post Thanks / Like
    If you award medals you keep the memory alive , the medals being a constant reminder, if you dont people might forget it ever happened overtime. Especially where acts of bravery occur due to the failings of senior management. Better to forget than to accuse

  5. #204
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,744
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    If you award medals you keep the memory alive , the medals being a constant reminder, if you dont people might forget it ever happened overtime. Especially where acts of bravery occur due to the failings of senior management. Better to forget than to accuse
    British are masters at stage manageing such events, Surrenders ( A bridge to far), Defeats (Rourkes Drift), Runaways (The miracle of Dunkirk) beause someone needs to cover there arse, or army/regiment/population needs reputation/moral maintained.
    Here the authorities (Army/ civil) due to a lack of experience of dealing with Surrenders, war, contact with the enemy, defeats etc, immediately begin to cover there own arses, nothing else mattered. By allowing this event to die away quickly, or when the accuations began they did not get involved (like putting the record straight) just in case someone turned around and asked the dreaded question, WHY and WHO put these MEN in that position and left them to fight for there lives until they had nothing left to fight with.

  6. Likes apc, DeV, Turkey liked this post
  7. #205
    CQMS
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    634
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    I agree with you, Na G,

    and if this is successful then there should be a major drive to award medals to those Naval lads who risked their lives putting out that fire.

    Why does every piss ant pox of a chief get the DSM for not burning the shop down, but lads who went above and beyond the call of duty get nothing?
    I think the fact that Quinlan wrote recommendations (which were ignored) for the medals within the time limit might make the case for the Jadoville lads more viable.

    I'm open to correction but I think that the Cliona guys weren't recommended for medals at the time and that this makes their case more difficult.

  8. Likes danno liked this post
  9. #206
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    5,098
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have watched Jadotville on Netflix over the weekend. As a war movie, yes it is good and enjoyable. As an accurate depiction of the event, it would fall under the category of "inspired by true events".

  10. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV, na grohmití liked this post
  11. #207
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,589
    Post Thanks / Like
    yes, it has been Hollywooded and some of the political stuff is wide of the mark but it's pretty good.

  12. #208
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,298
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    yes, it has been Hollywooded and some of the political stuff is wide of the mark but it's pretty good.
    Some of the action has been well fabricated too

  13. #209
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Heart in Donegal
    Posts
    2,102
    Post Thanks / Like
    The bit where they set the mines full of shrapnel, that's Hollywood at play, right?

    Also, the lads that were there seem pretty happy with it, 85% correct according to one fella on fb.
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  14. #210
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    5,098
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    Also, the lads that were there seem pretty happy with it, 85% correct according to one fella on fb.
    I suppose it depends on which 85% he is talking about. The interaction between Quinlan and Maj Gen McNamee (he was a Lt Col at the time, according to D Power's book) is completely fabricated, including the punch at the end (he is supposed to have gone for Comdt Kane who was in charge of the rescue task force). He would have communicated to McNamee in his role of Bn OC, but there would have been no interaction with the Cruiser. Task Force Kane was a company plus, and there were two of them. I suppose what annoyed me was that it gave the impression that A company was a much smaller force (pln + size), I know that is probably budget constraints but his officers were completely airbrushed out of the picture, some of whom did some pretty heroic deeds. It looked it was just him a CS and a Sgt in charge (there was one brief image of a Lt with the mortars and a doctor).

    The problem for me is that I have read too much about this, I am sure that if I examined the other war movies I enjoy that are based on true events I would see similar discrepancies. The positive thing is, it is getting great reviews, it has shone a light on what is an excellent story of military prowess and bravery involving Irish soldiers. And I will probably watch it again.

  15. Thanks Buck thanked for this post
    Likes sofa, Herald, morpheus, Turkey liked this post
  16. #211
    C/S goc132's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    westmeath
    Posts
    939
    Post Thanks / Like
    As in all Movies it has to sell to the Audience i.e.
    Michael Collins
    1 No Car Bombs in 1916-1922
    2 Ned Broy was not killed (he was 3rd Commissioner of An Garda Siochana)

    I was talking to one of the men from Jadotville and he said it was pretty accurate except for i.e.
    1. Quinlan was not shot
    2. Chopper was not knocked down with 84 Recoilless Rifle
    3. Quinlan decked Kane (two Kerrymen)
    4. Reidy (Billy) was the 1st man shot but he did not fall from a chopper

    Films need to sell but the main point is those men were vindicated & in MY OPINION Comdt Pat Quinlan for nothing else deserves an MMG for keeping all 155+ men alive under savage enemy fire with no help from the UN. The Comdt deserves the medal posthumously & I doubt anyone of the soldiers still alive would resent the MMG been awarded to him.

    Lesser people deserving have received DSM's

    Maybe we should start a petition547002_518435234843067_1771956249_n.jpg

  17. #212
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,298
    Post Thanks / Like
    Parting shot from An Taoiseach

    Medals for Jadotville

    http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/Re...C?OpenDocument

  18. Likes meridian liked this post
  19. #213
    Lt General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,365
    Post Thanks / Like
    What medal though?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  20. #214
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,298
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'd imagine a new one, or award unit and/or DSMs

  21. #215
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,533
    Post Thanks / Like
    From what I've heard it's going to be a newly designed medal.

  22. Likes DeV liked this post
  23. #216
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,558
    Post Thanks / Like
    Specifically for Jadotville I hope with very specific criteria around that even, otherwise there will be a queue out the door looking for them as the DSMs have been debased in value.
    Time for another break I think......

  24. Likes hedgehog, DeV liked this post
  25. #217
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,298
    Post Thanks / Like
    Its a new medal

  26. Likes hedgehog liked this post
  27. #218
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    The rich side of town
    Posts
    2,025
    Post Thanks / Like
    Cheapens their actions somewhat casting a new "participation" medal when so many were reccommended for legitimate medals by Comdt Quinlan. Are his recommendations being considered or will they be issued in addition to?
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

  28. Thanks na grohmití thanked for this post
  29. #219
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    5,098
    Post Thanks / Like
    What is the point of a new medal. Either they should receive one of the existing bravery medals or not. An "attaboy" medal for participation is an insult. Given that "displaying outstanding qualities of leadership, resource, devotion to duty and humanity in guiding the Defence Forces successfully through a most critical time" is a legitimate criteria for awarding the medal. Look at some of the citations of the awards given out in the Congo and you will see that it can be general enough to cover any situation.

    Here is the citation for Pte Peter Madigan "For distinguished service with the United Nations Force in the Republic of the Congo, for outstanding devotion to duty over several periods of service. Private Madigan's loyalty, steadiness and general trustworthiness made him a very valuable man wherever he served, and these attributes, together with his devotion to duty, proved to be a steadying and beneficial influence all his fellow soldiers."

  30. #220
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,298
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have 2 schools of though:

    1 - issue a new medal - this is probably fair as everyone who was there will get one and depending on the citation/criteria it would recognise their achievements and treatment by the DF

    2 - reassess the recommendations to the original medals board - but then not everyone who was there will be recognised but then again they already have a unit citation so maybe that would be OK

  31. Thanks na grohmití thanked for this post
  32. #221
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,558
    Post Thanks / Like
    Here is the citation for Pte Peter Madigan "For distinguished service with the United Nations Force in the Republic of the Congo, for outstanding devotion to duty over several periods of service. Private Madigan's loyalty, steadiness and general trustworthiness made him a very valuable man wherever he served, and these attributes, together with his devotion to duty, proved to be a steadying and beneficial influence all his fellow soldiers."
    That should be on a recommendation for promotion and nor for a medal linked with gallantry. Distinguished service is often confused with specific acts of gallantry and medals awarded in the wrong category as a result.

    The Congo awards are very loose when it comes to awarding with very little continuity in criteria other than being in a location and being slightly above average in service. look at the awards of the MMG and see who specific they are, now look at how DSMs were dished out like water and still are to a certain degree.

    Awards should be offered by peers rather than sought by wearers which has far too often become the norm.

    My one and only service medal, I did the time got the medal no questions as most who receive things like UN Medals etc, the criteria is specific, anything else depends on the day of the week and how the recomendation was made and why!
    Time for another break I think......

  33. #222
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,298
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    That should be on a recommendation for promotion and nor for a medal linked with gallantry. Distinguished service is often confused with specific acts of gallantry and medals awarded in the wrong category as a result.

    The Congo awards are very loose when it comes to awarding with very little continuity in criteria other than being in a location and being slightly above average in service. look at the awards of the MMG and see who specific they are, now look at how DSMs were dished out like water and still are to a certain degree.

    Awards should be offered by peers rather than sought by wearers which has far too often become the norm.

    My one and only service medal, I did the time got the medal no questions as most who receive things like UN Medals etc, the criteria is specific, anything else depends on the day of the week and how the recomendation was made and why!

    In fairness, we don't know from the citation exactly what that soldier did to be even considered as worth of a DSM

  34. #223
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Here And There...
    Posts
    10,315
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    From what I've heard it's going to be a newly designed medal.
    Also heard this. Why they can't award an existing award (DSM/MMG) is beyond me....
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  35. #224
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,298
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Also heard this. Why they can't award an existing award (DSM/MMG) is beyond me....
    There have been around 150 MMGs & DSMs awarded since they were introduced (this would bring the total up to 300)

    Should the CQ who got whatever for the lads get the same class DSM as the CO who would get private radio operator (all random examples).

    I'd give a new Jadotville service medal (say equivalent to 2nd class DSM) something along the lines of "in recognition of the individual and collective acts of bravery, courage, leadership, resource and devotion to duty as a member of A Coy 35 Inf Bn ONUC (or attached there to) in that at Jafotville they did inspite of overwhelming odds resisted all attacks in the best traditions of the DF......."

  36. #225
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,558
    Post Thanks / Like
    Its a general example. I've read most of the citations of awards from this period and tbh they don't really cut it.

    "in recognition of the individual and collective acts of bravery, courage, leadership, resource and devotion to duty as a member of A Coy 35 Inf Bn ONUC (or attached there to) in that at Jafotville they did inspite of overwhelming odds resisted all attacks in the best traditions of the DF..
    Sounds good. and the medal would be unique but the purists will say why not the existing medals?

    Which brings me back to the actual awarding of medals... The criteria must be specific and we need to look at Unit Citations and awards. There were people engaged in events where one or two persons had awards made where whole units did their utmost and went unrecognised.
    Time for another break I think......

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •