No more Israeli made kit?

[Herald]

We are not talking about guided missiles here by the way they are unguided rockets

DEV, if you're sitting in your house, with your wife and kids and their grandparents, it matters not a jot if you're hit by a 155mm shell, an ICBM or a modified RPG, coz you know what? You're all dead anyway.

[The real Jack]

We are not talking about guided missiles here by the way they are unguided rockets

So Dev your saying it's OK for a lump of HE to hit your house as long as it's unguided?

[DeV]

Have a look at these stats:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2014/08/israel-and-palestinians

3,360 rockets fired, 3 killed as a result

Of course I'm not saying I'd like to be living under threat in Israel but I definitely rather that than be in Gaza

[morpheus]

2 things strike me here..

1. Israel needs a more accurate targeted approach to retaliation.

2. Gaza launched over 3000 rockets at Israel and people in the west feel that Israel shouldn't even retaliate?

On the one hand the west is full of bleeding heart liberal tree hugging hypocrites if they think that any country should put up with this from a bunch of terrorists like Hamas.

However I totally agree that Israel is far too strong in dealing with a situation that is partly their own doing. the illegal settlements and land grabs, the blatant apartheid era way of dealing with palestinians and the general attitude of using a heavy handed inconsiderate and "collateral damage heavy" retaliation against hamas as a way of warning other arab countries of what they could expect should they also threaten Israel. Hospitals and Schools being used to launch rockets is a reality as is the use of imported concrete and steel for reconstructing civilian amenities and dwellings and roads for building tunnels. I dont know how much support Hamas has in the general population but until Hamas goes, i see no solution at all.

[Come-quickly]

Hamas are a criminal gang that need Israel to justify their own existence and the playboy lifestyle of upper management , that's why they aren't just planting bombs in Israel, they need the rockets coming out from Gaza to convince Gazan civvies that their absolute control of everything is justified.

People's apparent willingness to hold Israel to a higher standard than they'd hold themselves if there were rockets landing in Irish cities reflects the extent to which the story has been reduced to a popular fairytale narrative, which has all the thrills and urgency of reality but none of the boring difficulty.

If Europe's citizenry really gave a shit about Palestinians they'd get America and Egypt's tacit approval to annex Gaza and remove Hamas along with Israeli right's veneer of rational justification.

But since Europeans are convinced of the superior value of European lives and money we can safely assume they don't care, they just want to pose heroically amongst their childish narratives.

[terrier]

Considering that Egypt hates Hamas as much, or more, than Israel does I'd be happier if Irelands protesting community were a bit more evenhanded in their condemnation as to why Gaza is being cut off. As for Israeli kit, I've got friends whose son is in the Indian Army on the Pak border in Kashmir, and they're very grateful for Israeli supplied gear.

[Battletour]

If anybody has the time or the interest to detach and read this it might be useful.
The Gaza Strip is a tiny slip of land, approximately 25 miles long and about four to seven miles wide, on the Mediterranean coast of Israel.
Although it had been controlled by Israel for 38 years, on August 15, 2005, due to Palestinian violence, Israel withdrew from Gaza for the sake of the security of Israeli citizens in what was called the Disengagement Plan.

Because of its beachfront property, Gaza had the chance to build a Mediterranean paradise that could have drawn in billions of dollars through international tourism and produced millions more from vegetable and flower exports, but the fulfilment of that opportunity has not materialized thus far. Why? We need only look at what happened after August 2005 when the Israeli government removed all military from the Gaza Strip and forced the removal of close to 10,000 Jewish residents from an area called Gush Katif to understand that wasted opportunity.

The Israelis left behind a virtual Gan Eden (Garden of Eden) of farms and businesses, all built on what had been sand dunes.

Gush Katif housed 21 settlements in the southern Gaza Strip. Its residents had produced 200 farms that together exported an average $200 million in produce each year, which represented 15 per cent of the agricultural exports of the State of Israel.

The total assets of Gush Katif were valued at $23 billion. This small Jewish community accounted for 95 per cent of Israel’s export to Europe of bug-free lettuce and greens; 70 per cent of organic vegetables; 60 per cent of cherry tomatoes; and 60 per cent of geraniums.

Although the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) destroyed the homes of Jewish settlers when they left the area, synagogues, public buildings, factories and office buildings were left intact. The businesses and especially the highly productive network of greenhouses were purchased by a foundation set up by the EU and heavily funded by former head of the World Bank, James Wolfensohn, who left his post there in 2005 to become the Special Envoy for Gaza Disengagement.

The Israeli developments were to be given to the Palestinian Authority so as to preserve the jobs of the Palestinians that had been working there.

Nevertheless, destruction followed.

After the evacuation of Gaza, the synagogues were immediately destroyed by Palestinian mobs and the greenhouses were heavily looted, although some were left intact.

Abu Abir, a member of the Popular Resistance Committee, a terrorist organization, is reported to have said, “The looting and burning of the synagogues was a great joy ... It was in an unplanned expression of happiness that these synagogues were destroyed.”
Desecration of Jewish holy sites by Arabs is nothing new. Between 1948 and 1967, when the Jordanians occupied East Jerusalem, they used gravestones from Jewish cemeteries as building blocks for roads and latrines.

In 2006, Hamas, a terrorist group that used suicide attacks to bring itself publicity and esteem by the people did well in the 2006 Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) elections.

This election resulted in tension between Hamas and the leading Palestinian political party and rival militant group Fatah, which is the largest faction of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO).

Hamas also opposed the Oslo peace accords between Israel and the confederated multi-party PLO.

Its rise to power in Gaza triggered economic sanctions from Israel and the Quartet on the Middle East (the United Nations, the United States, the European Union, and Russia).

Although Hamas and Fatah formed a government together in 2007, Hamas seized unilateral control of the Gaza Strip.

“Hamas engaged in a coup d’état, murdering many members of the PA, seizing control of all of Gaza, and turning it into a militant theocracy. It used the material left behind by the Israelis not to feed its citizens but to build rockets with which to attack Israeli civilians. It was only after these rocket attacks that Israel began a siege of Gaza designed to prevent the importation of rockets and material used to build terrorist kidnap tunnels,” Harvard professor and renowned lawyer Alan Dershowitz said.
Instead of maximizing the benefit of Gush Katif and using its lands and businesses to pour millions of dollars into Gaza’s economy, this area was transformed into a military base to attack Israel.

In February 2007, YNet news reported, “The ruins of two large synagogues in Gush Katif, the evacuated Jewish communities of the Gaza Strip, have been transformed into a military base used by Palestinian groups to fire rockets at Israeli cities and train for attacks against the Jewish state, according to a senior terror leader in Gaza.”

At that time Abir was reported as saying, “We are proud to turn these lands, especially these parts that were for a long time the symbol of occupation and injustice, like the synagogue, into a military base and source of fire against the Zionists and the Zionist entity.” (YNet)

This destruction underscores the mindset of those who control the Gaza Strip.

Rather than have Palestinians benefit from humanitarian aid given by the international community to improve conditions in Gaza, the terrorist organizations that run Gaza have one goal and one goal only, and that is the destruction of the State of Israel.

Indeed, the chilling preamble to the Hamas charter codifies its commitment to the destruction of Israel: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

[Battletour]

Writing in the Washington Post about the present conflict and its roots in the disengagement of 2005, Charles Krauthammer asks, “And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them—an independent territory?

"First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.”

Krauthammer also describes how the Gazans took the resources they had been given—the materials to build an infrastructure and the money sent to them by the European states—to build tunnels and weapons.

“They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians,” writes Krauthammer.

Although Gaza has plenty of unpopulated land to launch rockets from and to build on, it chooses populated areas.

He concludes that Hamas does not expect to harm Israel with its rockets but only to draw Israeli fire to kill its own people, mostly children, so as to garner world sympathy.

Hamas will do anything and sacrifice anyone in the service of reaching this goal. If it means the death of thousands of women and children, that is nothing to them.

These infants and toddlers become shahidin, holy sacrifices for the cause of Islam, which Muslim extremists believe will dominate the world with one Islamic sharia (moral code) government under a caliphate—one Islamic world state.

Such a caliphate has already been declared by ISIS in Iraq and northern Syria.

In fulfillment of the end-time prophecy found in Psalm 83, it is the will of many extremist Palestinians to take back what God has given Israel and add it to this one Islamic caliphate.

“With cunning they conspire against Your people; they plot against those You cherish. 'Come,' they say, 'let us destroy them as a nation, so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.' For they have consulted together with one consent; They form a confederacy against You: The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites; Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assyria also has joined with them; They have helped the children of Lot.” (Psalm 83:4–8)
ISIS, the Islamic terrorist organization that now claims parts of Syria and Iraq as its own, is systematically raping young girls under the pretext of marriage arrangements while it destroys the cultures of the areas it now dominates and tortures and kills all who resist its fanatical advances.

Christians have been forced to flee for their lives from all of Syria and Iraq. The dark blanket of Sharia law has fallen over places where this ISIS caliphate is imposed. Under ISIS, the simplest offenses can mean the loss of a limb or one’s head.

In the name of Islam and the Koran, millions have become prisoners living in their own land.

The Gaza Strip, which is under the control of a similar fanatical Islamic organization, has been ravaged by leaders bent on destroying Israel. They have misappropriated billions of dollars of resources that were sent to begin the process of building a Mediterranean paradise for the Palestinian people, using those resources instead to buy weapons and create tunnels for terror.

Palestinian women and children are being forced to act as human shields for the launching of rockets from their homes, schools, and hospitals toward the homes, schools, and hospitals of Israeli women and children. Using the claim of Israeli oppression due to the “occupation,” Hamas continues to convince the world through a strangely compliant international media, that their cause is just and true and that they are the only ones who are suffering and in need of liberation.

Meanwhile, Hamas breaks one ceasefire after the other by the continuing shower of rockets on Israeli cities, including its central population centers of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Israel is, therefore, forced to retaliate in an attempt to bring the rocket attacks to an end so that Israel’s children can once again play in their parks and attend summer camps, and people can return to leading a normal life outside of bomb shelters.

But as Israel does its best to defend its civilians from constant bombardment, much of the world criticizes its counter attacks, saying the total death toll is disproportional—1,900 Gazans to 67 Israel.

While the media mostly shows the women and children wounded, the UN data reveals that three times as many men have been killed than women. In addition, the combatants often wear plain clothes (sometimes disguised as women) so it is not easy to identify them as militants.

Hamas continues the fight knowing that the more casualties caused by Israeli shelling, the greater the support it will receive from the international community.

And to maximize the impact of such statistics, it falsifies the records, adding to their casualties “Palestinians killed by Hamas as collaborators; Palestinians killed through domestic violence; Palestinians killed by errant Hamas rockets or mortars; and Palestinians who died naturally during the conflict.” (Gatestone Institute)
The effectiveness of such falsification is evident. The streets of major Western cities including those of the US, are filled with thousands marching in protest of the Israeli “atrocities” against the “innocent” Palestinians living in Gaza, and anti-Semitism is now on the rise.

Israel demands that Hamas be disarmed while Hamas demands that all borders be opened, and that they be allowed to build a seaport and international airport, both of which would be used almost exclusively for the shipment of arms into the Gaza Strip.

Open borders would quickly result in a rearmed Gaza.

Nevertheless, the international community including the UN, the EU and for the most part, the liberal factions in the US, see these demands as justified under the delusion that opening the borders would allow Gaza to become a normal society.
Global Fixation on Israel

There are cataclysmic events happening in the Ukraine and people are suffering terribly under Islam in the Middle East, yet the world seems to be fixated on Israel.

Citing anti-Semitism as a factor, in an interview by Jeffrey Goldberg for The Atlantic that was published Sunday, former United States secretary of state Hilary Clinton said, "There are more demonstrations against Israel by an exponential amount than there are against Russia seizing part of Ukraine and shooting down a civilian airliner. So there’s something else at work here than what you see on TV.”

The death toll in Syria is rising as rebel forces duke it out with Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad, who in order to hold on to power mows down his own people with the support of Iran and Russia. It is now approaching 200,000, with well over a third reported to be civilians.

But the recent inflated, phony statistics of 1,900 casualties in Gaza have everyone’s attention. Voices in the UN are accusing Israel of war crimes, even though Israel did its best to minimize Palestinian casualties when they repeatedly gave up the element of surprise by warning Gaza civilians that they were going to take out Hamas command centers and launching sites located in civilians areas.

Meanwhile, Iran, who has been supplying Hamas with weapons, seems completely intent on attaining nuclear weapons capability.

Hamas leader Ismail Haniyah has been quoted on Israeli television saying that if he had a nuclear bomb, he would not hesitate to use it against Israel. It is not hard to guess who would give Gaza such a weapon.

So while the US and US Secretary of State John Kerry play games with the Iranian regime supposedly designed to stop them from developing a nuclear weapon, but making no attempt to actually do so, the Hamas regime demands that Israel open its borders so that they can freely transport any and all forms of armament into their already armed enclave, including maybe a nuclear bomb.

[Jungle]

This explains the situation clearly:

“Here’s the difference between us,” explains the Israeli prime minister. “We’re using missile defense to protect our civilians, and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles.”

[expat01]

No fan of Hamas here, but a bit of perspective seems needed. "Garden of Eden" is a sick joke for the most densely populated area in the world. Perhaps it was so for the settlers who colonised it. Prior to the disengagement in 2005 a large part of employment for Gazans was in Israel proper, as cheap labour. That all ended when the Israeli presence (but not occupation) ended. There was a lot of needless destruction after the settlers were pulled out. We did our fair share of that in Ireland in the 1920s. Mind you this started with the Israeli destruction of the homes which were built, after all, on confiscated land to begin with. Then when Hamas took over, Israel blockaded the border.
Remember that the Gaza Strip, like the West Bank, is not a country. It does not have control over its borders or airspace. It's residents do not have a nationality. Which is why it is still considered to be under Israeli occupation by the UN.
In 2010 the blockade was somewhat lifted and the economy of Gaza grew massively, mostly based on agricultural exports so clearly they didn't destroy everything.

Hamas act out of an almost mindless urge to strike Israel, however ineffective and whatever the inevitably disproportionate response they spark. But if I was a member of a generation that had never known anything but foreign occupation and knew that whatever little I had could be turned on or off at will by those foreigners, I'm honestly not sure how I'd react. A journalist friend of mine just back from the area says that as far as he can see, there isn't even a plan. Many Palestinians see no future, believe that Israel hopes that things will get so bad that all the Palestinians will just emigrate so Israel can take the land, see no hope of any change and just nihilisticaly strike so that they won't disappear without leaving a mark.

[Battletour]

The most densely populated area in the world? You must be joking. 4,601 per sq km. The same as London. Try Paris at 20,246, Tokyo at 13,671, Calcutta at 24,718. The list goes on!
More Hamas lies. What's more, there are many open spaces where no action is taking place where people would have been safe had they been allowed to by Hamas. Hamas would rather have them killed to attract sympathy for their 'cause'. But you are right, the Gaza strip is not a country and never was. Judea and Samaria (what you call the West Bank) were never countries either, they are part of Israel.

If Israel had not blocked the Gaza border after Hamas came to power they would have been mad! Palestinians living in Gaza have been screwed by Hamas since then. Nobody seems to be pointing out that Egypt control the other side of Gaza? No cribbing about that, no flotillas etc. However who ever is accused of 'blockading' must be doing a poor enough job. How did Hamas import millions of tons of cement to construct the tunnels? How did it import the thousands of rockets with which to attack Israel?

Here we go with the disproportionate response crap again. We have already discussed this misnomer. A foreign occupation? What foreign occupation? Gaza was never part of any Palestinian independent country, ever. Like your journalist friend I am also recently returned from the area and he is right. As long as Hamas have their heel on the necks of the Palestinians there will be no future for them. Did you know that circa 150 children, died during the forced labour constructing the tunnels? Did you know that many digger operators were executed by Hamas in the last week or two in case they gave information to the Israelis?

Israel take the 'land'? This is the 'land' called Gaza which they gave to Palestinians in return for peace in 2005! Some peace! You would imagine that if they had any sense they would take it back. This would be the only way to secure it to prevent future attacks!

Did you ask your reporter friend how come no Irish TV station ever filmed Hamas launching rockets?

[expat01]

The most densely populated area in the world? You must be joking. 4,601 per sq km. The same as London. Try Paris at 20,246, Tokyo at 13,671, Calcutta at 24,718. The list goes on!
More Hamas lies. What's more, there are many open spaces where no action is taking place where people would have been safe had they been allowed to by Hamas. Hamas would rather have them killed to attract sympathy for their 'cause'. But you are right, the Gaza strip is not a country and never was. Judea and Samaria (what you call the West Bank) were never countries either, they are part of Israel.

If Israel had not blocked the Gaza border after Hamas came to power they would have been mad! Palestinians living in Gaza have been screwed by Hamas since then. Nobody seems to be pointing out that Egypt control the other side of Gaza? No cribbing about that, no flotillas etc. However who ever is accused of 'blockading' must be doing a poor enough job. How did Hamas import millions of tons of cement to construct the tunnels? How did it import the thousands of rockets with which to attack Israel?

Here we go with the disproportionate response crap again. We have already discussed this misnomer. A foreign occupation? What foreign occupation? Gaza was never part of any Palestinian independent country, ever. Like your journalist friend I am also recently returned from the area and he is right. As long as Hamas have their heel on the necks of the Palestinians there will be no future for them. Did you know that circa 150 children, died during the forced labour constructing the tunnels? Did you know that many digger operators were executed by Hamas in the last week or two in case they gave information to the Israelis?

Israel take the 'land'? This is the 'land' called Gaza which they gave to Palestinians in return for peace in 2005! Some peace! You would imagine that if they had any sense they would take it back. This would be the only way to secure it to prevent future attacks!

Did you ask your reporter friend how come no Irish TV station ever filmed Hamas launching rockets?

Obfuscation and bluster.
Was Gaza granted independence, either for itself or as part of some other country? How does the argument that they were never part of a country (of course they were, as was what is now Israel before 1948, until a successful terrorist campaign might we add) support the condition of these people as stateless?

The cities you quote have hinterlands, form part of a larger entity to and from which the residents have free movement. Gaza does not.
Is Gaza or the West Bank part of Israel? Are the people living there Israeli citizens? No. Therefore they are foreigners to Israel. Israel is the controlling power and officially considered the occupying power. It is an occupation. Unless.....

You refer to Judea and Samaria as part of Israel, so the inconvenient people who live there...will they be voting in the next elections for the Knesset?
Of course not. If it's not an occupation, it's a colonial enterprise. What do you imagine is the eventual fate of these inconvenient natives?
I have a lot of sympathy for Israelis. But no amount of bluster changes the fact that, for one reason or another, Israel controls territory and people inside it who they have no intention of either enfranchising or granting independence to. These people have a right to resist, the occupier does not get to blame the occupied for the form that resistance takes - much as is often disgusts me. However, increasingly over the last ten years Israel's actions disgusts me almost as much, despite the overwhelmingly pro-Israeli coverage that has up to now pervaded western media.

[ned stark]

I love seein how far off topic a thread on this site can go.
It's gas!!!!!

[expat01]

I love seein how far off topic a thread on this site can go.
It's gas!!!!!

Try arrse!

[hptmurphy]

Touch of irony that Europe and America by their strict immigration policies of the 30s 40s and 50s backed radical jews into a corner to create the state of Israel and merely talked about solutions while the Jews took action to force theirvown solution to the issue.
Again everyone talks while Israel takes action and then complain about the out comes.

I don't like the Israelis. I don't like hamas and recognise the all to familiar tactics as employed by the IRA during the troubles here.
There is no solution to this especially involving the UN. Isolating the Israelis through economic means won't work as not every one will back it. Hamas would be replaced by another radical muslim group. There is no feasible soloution that will give long term peace so leave them at it until theh run out of bulletd or people to kill
...and the winter wil be here soon.. the crusties don't like the cold.

Its a bit callous but thr eest have yet to effect any lasting solution in any middle eastern issue so wheres the point