The rumour mill...

[DeV]

You also have a bigger pool of pilots, techs etc in Baldonnel (you won't have as many rostering issues)

DFTC Fire Service Pln isn't aircraft trained/equipped

You need a permanent pad, accommodation, offices, rest area, hanger, fuel facilities etc (and there isn't lots of room in that area of the camp - there is an area beside it alright that possible could be suitable but I'd question would it be safe)

[GoneToTheCanner]

you simply run the roster from baldonnel, as they did for the border for years, for two locations and currently do for Athlone. This is not new or difficult.....the fire crew in DFTC are aircraft-trained otherwise there would be no heli ops from DFTC......the DFTC has lots of room and facilities don't have to be magnificent. If they can fit into Athlone, they'd manage in the Curragh.....a fuel system is easy to install as there are palletised systems available that meet the highest standards....there's already a pad and a windsock, surveyed and approved by the Don.

[Charlie252]

While I am not sure if there is a case for a 24/7 Standby machine for ARW ops in the Curragh, however don't shoot down the suggestion with facile arguments.
What facilities are in place in Athlone for Heli OPs? Are there Fire Crew, extensive office and support facilities and a fuel farm?

[ropebag]

while i am firmly of the view that if the purpose of SF is for internal CT work then building in an additional delay in response through having the SF and their transport in two different locations is just as dumb as pork, i don't see why the need is to move the hugely technical, complicated, difficult to fix, transport to the Curragh rather than put SF in a minibus, and drive the minibus to Baldonell.

it would be far easier and cheaper to have the duty SF team based at Baldonell than it would to be to base a helicopter, techies, spares, fuel, and 24 hours worth of crew at the Curragh.

as we're only talking about one helicopter - out of a total of six - the issues are the proportion of the AC tech crew for the whole fleet being used to support, exclusively, one aircraft, the availability of another aircraft should the first go un-fixibly U/S, and lets be imaginative, immediate access to the other AC assets.

to me, someone who regards crabs and their myriad excuses for abject failure as the lowest and least admirable form of life on the entire planet, the whole exercise just looks like effort for the sake of it. you'll get better availability rates, just as quick a service, as well as SF access to the CASA's by moving Mohammed to the mountain rather than the other way around.

dead easy: give the duty SF team a ready room, a 50m range, and a phone and you're in business - operating a helicopter on a permanent basis away from its base is a bit more complicated, and keeping it simple keeps it cheap.

[DeV]

Athlone isn't 24/7

[DeV]

while i am firmly of the view that if the purpose of SF is for internal CT work then building in an additional delay in response through having the SF and their transport in two different locations is just as dumb as pork, i don't see why the need is to move the hugely technical, complicated, difficult to fix, transport to the Curragh rather than put SF in a minibus, and drive the minibus to Baldonell.

it would be far easier and cheaper to have the duty SF team based at Baldonell than it would to be to base a helicopter, techies, spares, fuel, and 24 hours worth of crew at the Curragh.

as we're only talking about one helicopter - out of a total of six - the issues are the proportion of the AC tech crew for the whole fleet being used to support, exclusively, one aircraft, the availability of another aircraft should the first go un-fixibly U/S, and lets be imaginative, immediate access to the other AC assets.

to me, someone who regards crabs and their myriad excuses for abject failure as the lowest and least admirable form of life on the entire planet, the whole exercise just looks like effort for the sake of it. you'll get better availability rates, just as quick a service, as well as SF access to the CASA's by moving Mohammed to the mountain rather than the other way around.

dead easy: give the duty SF team a ready room, a 50m range, and a phone and you're in business - operating a helicopter on a permanent basis away from its base is a bit more complicated, and keeping it simple keeps it cheap.

If you move the team you remove them from the facilities that are purpose built for them and possibly some of their equipment (eg what if they need their bog RHIBs?)

You could also be using up limited flight hours

All you have to do is put a procedure in place in case of ARW operational tasking (if not already there)
Maybe slightly improve response time

The nature of this that in most cases you will have a few hours to get to the scene due to primose of AGS (they will have to contain incident, negotiate and possibly try there own methods first)

[GoneToTheCanner]

So it's a case of moving A to B or B to A; SF from their base and all the associated facilities or move the heli on a rotational basis (which the Don have been doing since the 70s). There are pros and cons to either, as we have figured out. Also, there's more to them than just internal CT, because of international ops in East Timor, Chad,etc,etc, so it's transferrable skills being kept up.

[DeV]

So it's a case of moving A to B or B to A; SF from their base and all the associated facilities or move the heli on a rotational basis (which the Don have been doing since the 70s). There are pros and cons to either, as we have figured out. Also, there's more to them than just internal CT, because of international ops in East Timor, Chad,etc,etc, so it's transferrable skills being kept up.

Or maintain the status quo
Or maintain the status quo (with reduced response time)

[Jetjock]

Has the ARW turned up late to a counter terrorist or hostage rescue operation recently? Has there been an upsurge iin activity by the Connemara Jihadi movement? Because unless the internal threat level has dramatically increased of late (and you know something we don't GTTC!) giving the ARW permanent use of 1/8th of an already absurdly small helicopter fleet, is itself about as absurd a use of a limited asset as is possible(and I'm including taking a CASA to an Off Licence).

If there was a need for it it probably could be done quite easily(as is being proven in Athlone). If not keep them in Baldonell as an asset available to the entire DF and not a single(relatively small) unit.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Then by those lights, it's time to scrap the ARW, if you think all they are good for is scoping out dissidents and other ne'er-do-wells. They have a distinct military function but clearly the Gods think that it is better that the Gardai have a three-aircraft fleet at their exclusive disposal rather than their best soldiers, who have to beg for it and then wait for it and to allow the HSE to tie up one of the bigger aircraft on a function that would easily be served by a civil helicopter operated by civvies. So, four aircraft out of the system already, before the ARW get a foot in the door? Remember, the Alouette function, consuming two aircraft is gone and one aircraft is playing flying doctor, replacing the Alouette / Dauphin which stood on SAR, which still leaves plenty of hulls for actual soldiering. Now i know the daily fleet availability varies widely but I'd rather have one put aside for the ARW, above any other soldiering demand. Right now, if they ask for a heli to go to the Curragh, that return trip alone is burning probably 50 flight hours and x thousands of litres, per year, on a pointless transit, not to mention pilot and aircrew hours. Despite all the toing and froing, I still believe that it makes no sense to make beggars of a very specialist unit.

[Tempest]

Anyone have any stats on how many times a year ARW use AC choppers? Without that info this is endless. There must be weeks on end (if not months) when they have no requirement for choppers, seems crazy to go to the expense of paying a set of wages and expenses to sit around unused. Don't you think if they thought they needed an in-house chopper they'd have asked for it? And if they did want it, it wouldn't need to be a high-spec 139, they could go on the secondhand market and pick up a couple of 109's for a pittance and ask to have a few Donners seconded to operate it, or develop in-house crewing. If it's good enough for the SAS, who are a lot busier.....

[ropebag]

while i disagree with GTTC regarding the method of getting SF to where they need to be as quickly as possible, i do think its worth looking at the potential threats, taking a deep breath and thinking how serious they are.

we know that Irish citizens/residents have travelled to Syria, Iraq and Libya, and while there have become members of, and fought with, Islamic terrorist groups - and we've just had the fact that Irish troops have been brassing up Al-Quada in Syria plastered all over the media.

lets say that again, there are people sympathetic with, and having fought with, Al Quada living in Ireland - and in the last week they've seen Irish troops brass-up their comrades in Syria.

secondly, the state next door, the state that has a complex history regarding Ireland, to whom the best part of a million people who live on the Island of Ireland pledge a kind of allegience, and to whom a large number of other people are indomitably hostile, is at the very least creaking, if not begining to break up this week.

to me, that says there are serious issues to consider - loony Loyalists from up north, paranoid about the break up of the UK and relentlessly hostile to Ireland, and looking to make a statement, and some very scary individuals who've seen Ireland 'attack' their brothers.

if it were me, i'd be switched on to fcuk, and absolutely ready to go and sat on the tarmac...

[DeV]

Is there any evidence that they can't get access ?

Could it be to do with cuts in flying hours?

You'll notice you don't see as many pics of AC aircraft on ex any more, why?

Because the reduced hours are prioritised to MREs, ARW, etc

[X-RayOne]

Athlone isn't 24/7

True, not a 24/7 service....but a permanent service now none the less. It is something to build on and expand which eventually will only benefit patients and the public more than present.

[pym]

I have to assume that the ERU, ARW & IAC sat down and had a good chat with each other after looking at what happened in Norway in 2011 - when their national police ERU had to go 37 miles by car to get to the site of the attack.

And as a result, should anything happen here - we wont suffer the same issue.

Again, I find it very hard to believe that either the ERU or ARW would have to "beg" to get helicopter time, but the word keeps coming up - it would be nice to have some evidence of it.

This is the type of flying I'm sure the IAC crews love doing - I don't see why it would require begging.

It would be interesting to see 1/2 helis dedicated to aiding SF missions. If that means spending more time in the Curragh, or abroad training with the ARW - I've no doubt it could be done - it would surely be a premier posting within the AC, something for crews to aspire to.

If there's an appetite for it within the ARW/ERU, I'm sure it could be done.