The rumour mill...

[Charlie252]

@252, I assure you, from having crawled over every square inch of both Casas, the corrosion protection is just bog-standard zinc chromate or whatever the current equivalent is now. There was absolutely nothing special about the paint. In the early days, the blue paint on the Casas was so badly applied by the factory that it tore off in long, jagged strips, something that I have never before or since encountered on a wide range of aircraft, certainly not on Beech or Boeing aircraft. The two aircraft also leaked like sieves as they had not been sealed properly at the factory. We also had grief with props (excessive erosion due to the maritime environment), engines (inflight shutdowns), doors (one tried to detach in flight), radars, cameras, toilets ( a toilet from a caravan for a six man crew for six hours?), mission equipment (some parts of which were so unique that they were the only actual examples and there were no spares) and were of the opinion that they had been rushed into service to please the hierarchy. It generated quite a lot of heat between the Don and the suppliers and Casa .What started out as a wonderful opportunity to have new aircraft rapidly deterioriated into a firefighting exercise to keep at least one aircraft flying or available at all times and it descended into the high farce of literally tearing the radar off one after the engines shut down to rapidly attach it to the other, so that it could fly.Maybe someday, some one will write a no-holds barred account of the Casa's service, without rose-tinted glasses...The -235 entered service as an regional airliner long before it ever served as a MARPAT aircraft, but was less successful than the ATR series at that job (basically because ATR gave them away practically for free to get a toehold in the market).It's saving grace was having a ramp, which appealed to the military and third-level operators in developing nations and because it replaced old Fokker 27s and Hs 748s, which guzzled fuel.I think it was only Binter managed to operate them in Europe.The Indonesians managed to make a better deal out of them and they have a much tougher environment than rural Spain....they are getting long in the tooth and the DoD should be getting on with plans to replace them, even if only as an exercise in wishful thinking.It costs only ink and coffee to generate plans, which is what the DoD and the Don should be doing. Right now, the DF can't buy a biro without someone questioning the need for it or the Indo writing a scandal piece about it so I expect any plans for replacement will sit on the back burner.
regards
GttC

Hi GTTC,

I think you are confusing many of the issues with C-250 with the two blue aircraft.

As Far as I know the aircraft had specialised corrosion protection that was applied in addition to the paint. The original paint job was very poor and basically wore off, the efforts to paint the aircraft properly, took a protracted time and cost a small fortune in specialist consultants to finally have the aircraft painted to a good standard. The reports from the first 2/3 "C Checks" carried out on the two airframes were that there was no corrosion problems and that was backed up with what our guys saw on the annual inspections that were carried out in Bal.

I remember the door almost falling off, but that was 250 the rest of the aircraft problems you mention were also on 250 I think. I was involved with 252/253 for the first ten years or so and as far as I can remember we never had an inflight shutdown, the engines were and are virtually bullet proof, even when 250 was flown thru a tree the engines were fine despite the pilots having pushed them well past there design limits.

I never remember any corrosion issues with prop's although the prop de-icing could be problematic.

You can't blame the aircraft for the toilet or the camera problems, the toilet was sorted out(it took about six month IIRC) and the camera was basically binned despite its huge cost, but that is another uniquely Irish answer to an Irish problem.

The Radar was a fantastic bit if kit and the mission system was quite advanced but the problems were really created by the naiveté of the AC when speccing the system as some of the components were too specialised for such a simple mission. The Optical Disk Drives which were used to transfer the mission data between the aircraft and the Mission Support Facility(MSF), were a hugely expensive and highly specced piece of military kit, they were designed for and used on the B-1B and really were overkill for the CASA.
The rest of the mission kit was developed over a series of hardware and software upgrades, this is quite typical for a military aircraft and the initial bugs were ironed out quite quickly although it took some time to get the system up to its eventual final release. The lack of cash resources was mostly to blame for the battle on the front line to keep both aircraft mission capable, if more funds had been available a more appropriate amount of spares would have been available. For example the "Travelling Wave Tube" was a part of the radar that had a relatively short MTBF but we only had three so there was never enough of this mission critical part, the maintenance turn around time was too slow also. The powers that be decided to not invest funds in buying more parts and instead let the mission capable rate drop and make a case for what was eventually the Radar and mission equipment replacement.

I don't remember the aircraft leaking and I spent quite a bit of time on both of them.

The reason for the few airliners with Binter was that in the early days the aircraft was a very slow seller and Binter took them as they were state owned. But this was not what the aircraft was designed for, nobody would design a regional airliner with a ramp.. The aircraft has sold quite well in the later years and the -100/-200/-300 were far better aircraft then the original -10.

I don't mean to display rose tinted glasses, but the reality is not as bad as you may remember and many of the problems with 250 were not present on the blue machines, the aircraft performed well and I am sure they still do. The persistent lack of proper funding and lack of focus in the organisation to develop the aircraft and the mission accounts for quite a lot of the perceived shortfalls in the aircraft.

Whether they are getting long in the tooth and need replacement is an interesting question.. they were bought with a notional 20 year life span, but how they have held up over the later years is hard to know, the new mission system and radar have many years left in them.

As always funding will be the problem going forward.

[Pure Hover]

DeV, you seem to repeatedly & completely miss the point that ropebag and others have made.

If there's any truth whatsoever in the C295 being considered as anything other than a like-for-like C235 replacement - it's only because it could enable the DF as a whole, to take on a wider range of missions than was previously possible.

So not the narrow set of existing use cases you keep going back to, while ignoring the wide range of potential missions an aircraft in its class could open up.

Wouldnt necessarily say that Dev is missing any point in a highly speculative discussion. After all Turkey could have said the PC9's were being replaced with F35's but that would have produced snorts of derision so other options are far more plausible. Thats not to say of course that there isn't some truth in the rumour....!

Advocates for a 295 for example naturally assume it would open up a much wider range of roles for the AC and theres no doubt it would but sadly I believe there's no desire on the part of the DoD to expand any of the roles of he AC and indeed are actively trying to downsize the force and its potential. The AC have been trying hard to expand its roles, become more relevant and deploy overseas to but this has been met with a wall of resistance. The new White Paper may change that but four years delay doesn't engender confidence.
Current roles will at the very least require similar aircraft with similar capabilities into the future. A little bit of planning and foresight could greatly enhance these capabilities in any future procurement program.

[pym]

Wouldnt necessarily say that Dev is missing any point in a highly speculative discussion. After all Turkey could have said the PC9's were being replaced with F35's but that would have produced snorts of derision so other options are far more plausible. Thats not to say of course that there isn't some truth in the rumour....!

Huh?

Look, as nobody needs to be reminded - the DF budget is tiny to begin with.

So we're saying if a C295 was seriously being considered - it wouldn't just be a result of the Air Corps sticking it on a wishlist and sending it into the DoD.

The DF as a whole would have to want it and be fighting with the DoD/DoF to get it.

For that to happen it would have to be offering roles and capabilities to the Army that they really want to develop & even for the NS, it would have to be seen to have a positive impact - say on extra C235 availability.

With a tiny budget to go around, a C295 means other big projects e.g. LTAVs & MOWAG upgrades either not getting done as quickly or as completely - so you can be pretty feckin sure that if there's any veracity to the rumours, the army would have had to have identified a strong future requirement, something which is beyond the capabilities of the DF at present & something that doesn't lend itself to contracting out.

And not only that, they'd have to believe the Air Corps were up to the job of delivering on those capabilities.

[DeV]

DeV, you seem to repeatedly & completely miss the point that ropebag and others have made.

If there's any truth whatsoever in the C295 being considered as anything other than a like-for-like C235 replacement - it's only because it could enable the DF as a whole, to take on a wider range of missions than was previously possible.

So not the narrow set of existing use cases you keep going back to, while ignoring the wide range of potential missions an aircraft in its class could open up.

Except I know how the likes of Finance think

If you can show an existing role that needs to be filled and a role that needs filling, you might get money

[ropebag]

....the army would have had to have identified a strong future requirement, something which is beyond the capabilities of the DF at present & something that doesn't lend itself to contracting out...

as at least one other person has suggested, perhaps the issues surrounding the Libya NEO are the reason this might have legs. regardless of the details/bad luck/errors/whatever, having an AC aircraft turn up at Tripoli and then fly back to Malti having collected not a sausage was politically embarrassing for the Irish Government - it made (again, regardless of the truth) the Irish State look amateurish. if the aircraft had been able to disgorge a couple of ARW blokes on 125's to go looking for people to pick up, as well as DFA people to co-ordinate with the other nationalities present and look after them, then the episide might not have happened. space means capability.

its quite possible that if done cleverly the DF (and a 295 would be a defence asset, not a plaything for the AC that the other services got to see at airshows..) could be pushing at an open door on this one - the secret, as with all big procurement, is to focus the proposal on what the asset gives the politician, and that is options and cover.

[ropebag]

Except I know how the likes of Finance think

If you can show an existing role that needs to be filled and a role that needs filling, you might get money

then you need to learn not how civil servants in MoF think, but how politicians who sit in Cabinet and who tell civil servants in MoF what they will buy think. begging the MoF for stuff is a waste of time, its their job to say no - you need to show politicians who sit in cabinet that it is their interests to have this or that capability, then the CS/MoF just do what they are told.

[Rhodes]

Where is the APOD & SPOD for UNIFIL ? Beruit, is there even a dirt strip in the AO? AFAIK no

Where is the APOD & SPOD for UNDOF ? I could be wrong but see above

For UNIFIL almost everything goes in and out via Beirut airport and sea port. There's no airstrip in the AO, heli ops only.
Beirut is also being used for UNDOF as the MSR between the AO and Damascus is extremely dangerous. Tel Aviv is also of limited use mainly just for pax.

[GoneToTheCanner]

@252, it wasn't 250 that hit the trees, it was one of the blue ones, because I helped repair it.The two radomes were smashed, as were the sponsons and the intakes.......the leaks happened continuously because the upper fairings and panels weren't sealed and water ran down the inner walls and pooled in the radar, resulting in lots of radar troubles.........the toilet took a lot longer than six months to fix and we were told that a proper toilet was excluded for weight and space reasons, which was basically bullshit.....the corrosion proofing was an etch primer which was designed to replace the zinc chromate. The paint tearing happened on the blue Casas and I recall the embarrassed Casa rep apologising in the hangar.................like you said, it's all about the money, in the end.

[DeV]

For UNIFIL almost everything goes in and out via Beirut airport and sea port. There's no airstrip in the AO, heli ops only.
Beirut is also being used for UNDOF as the MSR between the AO and Damascus is extremely dangerous. Tel Aviv is also of limited use mainly just for pax.

Thanks Rhodes

So in theatre f/W ops not required on any current op

[ropebag]

Thanks Rhodes

So in theatre f/W ops not required on any current op

ah yes, framing a 30 year cabability purchace on the requirements of a single current operation - ****ing planning genius.

you've not, i noticed, considered current ops like Mali, or recent ops like Chad or Liberia...

[Charlie252]

@252, it wasn't 250 that hit the trees, it was one of the blue ones, because I helped repair it.The two radomes were smashed, as were the sponsons and the intakes.......the leaks happened continuously because the upper fairings and panels weren't sealed and water ran down the inner walls and pooled in the radar, resulting in lots of radar troubles.........the toilet took a lot longer than six months to fix and we were told that a proper toilet was excluded for weight and space reasons, which was basically bullshit.....the corrosion proofing was an etch primer which was designed to replace the zinc chromate. The paint tearing happened on the blue Casas and I recall the embarrassed Casa rep apologising in the hangar.................like you said, it's all about the money, in the end.

You are right it was a blue one, but the point I was making was about the engines, the crew fire walled the power levers and pushed the engines way above the 944ITT limit and GE just required a borescope for tree debris.. I think it is easy to blame the CASA when the AC needs a more detailed analysis of how it has supported and utilised the aircraft..

On the Rumour, the Army had a C-27J visit Bal years ago and were very keen on that aircraft at the time, I think funding and trust in the AC might have been the issue. The AC's focus has been more Army centric of late and in reality the drive for such a large capital expenditure will have to come from the wider DF, as others have stated.
IMHO the C-27J is a far better aircraft then the C-295 and this has been the feeling of the various countries that have evaluated the aircraft, the C-295 has won quite a few contracts as a result of its lower cost. Many Operators have taken the view that the saving is worth it even with the sacrifice of capability.

Typically though those air arms also had transport aircraft at the heavier end of the scale and hence have a high/low mix. For the AC IF there is a purchase the focus has to be on capability because it will be the only asset the DF will have for decades. Future proofing will have to built into whatever tender may eventually be issued.

And then there is the possibility of refurbished C-130H's.. probably get two for the price of a C-295.. the operating costs are in a different league, but then so is the utility!!

[morpheus]

Is buying a single example of the aircraft an intelligent approach though?

[DeV]

ah yes, framing a 30 year cabability purchace on the requirements of a single current operation - ****ing planning genius.

you've not, i noticed, considered current ops like Mali, or recent ops like Chad or Liberia...

You may not have noticed but Ireland is in a recession (there will be a lot of departments (and foreign banks we owe money to) that will get money before the DF.

Highly likely that they would have to be funded by savings elsewhere in the budget

And when the DoF ask DoD how they cope without that capability at the moment? What will they be told? Contracted out/someone else does it


It only missions where a tactical airlifter was required was Congo and Chad

If you can justify a need you might get money, thats the way it is!

And what happens if it goes unused after purchase?

[pym]

Is buying a single example of the aircraft an intelligent approach though?

Ideally you'd be looking at three - but the concept of tactical transport is such a sea change for the bean counters to wrap their heads around, that I can imagine the DF accepting one airframe to begin with, on the basis that they can work the hell out of it - supporting domestic exercises, EUBG, supporting AW139's on overseas exs etc. etc.

Basically making it such an integral part of DF operations, that a second (and an option) would be a more realistic prospect a few years down the line.

If that's the case - perhaps we might be looking at an initial year or two lease.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all,
@252, just as you mention C27s, I was looking at AFM this morning and there was a pic of new Afghan C-27s being chopped up and the a 295 loaded up to the roof with all of the sensors and optics in the sales brochure, flying for the first flight for the Omanis, for future MARPAT....maybe the DoD here could blag a few C27s off the USAF (what a cretinous waste of a programme).