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  • #16
    Originally posted by paul g View Post
    Ther book in question is "orders for the captain" by james kelly, long since out of print but a good library should be able to get a copy, he details a conversation with Colonel Heffernan director of military intelligence about the RUC's shortland armoured car and how it broke the informal agreement on deploying armour.


    Centurion being favoured look at Victor Laing's Book the chief of staf reports published recently which is the definitive source on the development of the Df post war.

    About british fears abouit selling weapons, again books, look atRonan Fannings discussion about Sean Mc Bride's offer of of a joinmt pact with the americans, look at ronan fannings Documents on irish foreign policy. Though some suggest that the biritsh actually wanted to keep the money in the sterling area.
    Paul,

    Thank You...I'll have to look for Kelly's book... though with respect are you suggesting that a conversation between two reasonably junior Army Officers led to a major uplift in Defence Force procurement? Surely this would be in the public domain...discussed in The Dail etc?

    I can understand perhaps more modern equipment being purchased because of the situation in Northern Ireland...and that situations threat to the stability of the rest of the Island...but bought in case the RUC decided to fight the Irish Army??? I can think of no sound reason why the RUC or UDR would want to fight the Irish Army...or why anyone would think that they might.

    The RUC didn't break any informal agreement on deploying armour...because such an agreement can't have existed.

    The reason I say that is that due to the terrorist threat the RUC were equipped with armoured vehicles from their inception...my Father was crewing a Daimler Dingo in 1958...eleven years before things went into meltdown...and many years before the AML's were purchased. The Daimler Dingo was a much more militarily capable vehicle than the Shorland... which was a lightly armoured / armed urban internal security patrol vehicle.

    Victor Laing...again I'll try and source it but does it say that the Centurion was favoured but not an option at the time...or that the British refused to sell it to the Irish?

    I have never been aware of any form of British military embargo involving Ireland...and I don't think it would have been in British interests to do so either...for selfish British reasons of course...Perfidious Albion and all that.

    But as always...happy to be corrected / educated.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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    • #17
      @murph, it's a pity they didn't try to convert the Comet to a Self propelled gun like a 25-pdr Sexton or a Bofors mount like an M42 Duster......I always thought the AMLs were bought to (a) replace the tanks, especially from the point of view of nationwide mobility (b) give the DF some kind of transportable armour for overseas ops, with a credible gun (c) match the M3 Panhards for alleged compatability/single source and let them replace the mishmash of troop carriers that did exist(d) get over the embarrassment of having no decent armour in the Congo..........with regard to buying tracked armour, I'd consider a 155mm tracked gun such as the Phz-2000 or the Paladin (to make up for the lack of a heavy gun in the DF) and M88 Wreckers (or equivalent) for sheer grunt when it comes to hauling wrecks or heavy loads or heavy engineering such as bridging or vehicle repair. I would most certainly replace the old, short 90mm gun as not being fit for purpose and get a new 90mm or 105mm eight-wheeler. I would also adopt the French attitude of bringing the biggest bang you've got with you, when you go on tour, as much as possible.

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      • #18
        Lots of examples of British embargoing export of hardware to Ireland during WW2, hence why we ended up with so few aircraft, artillery pieces etc. Even post-war they were not keen on supplying, e.g. Spitfires. But once 'normal service' was resumed in the 1950's, I too have never heard of their refusing to supply anything after that, nor that there was a serious attempt to procure centurions. I would have thought something like that would have been mentioned in printed material relating to Tank Squadron over the years, e.g. the squadron history issue of An Cosantoir. I do recall several Chiefs of Staff briefing lapdog journos on their 'wish list' of equipment, and such articles appearing over the years. This sounds like one of those.

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        • #19
          The response from the British depended on the humour in 10, Downing Street.Certainly, allowing PoWs to escape across the border helped to supply spares and kit but there was obstruction on both sides. One order for 3.7 in AA guns was delayed by civil servants arguing the toss over payments, even though the UK Govt was willing to ship them at once. Another example was the Air Corps insisting that the Seafires be fitted with the cannon and .303 wing, when the production system was well past that. Most of the cooperation at local level was very friendly and only rendered difficult at political/governmental level.

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          • #20
            Initially between 1948 until 1954 the Churchills were leased when they were bought outright.One remained in service until 1969, two had been boarded in 1967 and one in 1963

            Were the AML series vehicles not bought with a view to supporting Ireland's increasing involvement in UN missions overseas
            .

            I believe this to be the case as the first batch of AML 60 CS cars were delivered directly to Cyprus, October 1963.

            The AML 90 was the preffered option but possibly for financial reasons the AML 60 _7 CS was the first purchased. The initial descison to purchase was made back in 1961.

            In 1970 20 x AML 90s and 16 x AML 60 HBs were ordered with deliveries complete in 1975!

            So......
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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            • #21
              @murph, it's a pity they didn't try to convert the Comet to a Self propelled gun like a 25-pdr Sexton or a Bofors mount like an M42 Duster.
              Given we were never going to be able to opertae tanks in a conventional role and that 120mm mortars are far more flexible and mobile I think it was a last grasp at trying to retain tracked capability, even if we couldn't move it as tanks are supposed to be moved

              ie by transporter, not under there own steam.

              match the M3 Panhards for alleged compatability/single source and let them replace the mishmash of troop carriers that did exist(d) get over the embarrassment of having no decent armour in the Congo
              Looking at the time scale the VTT M3s were a bit of an after thought given the first two batchs of AML 60s had been in service ten years before their delivery. But the attempt at commonality was indeed a good one and a well earned lesson by continuing to use a range of Mowag products in modern times.

              M88 Wreckers (or equivalent) for sheer grunt when it comes to hauling wrecks or heavy loads or heavy engineering such as bridging or vehicle repair
              Pardon the pun but they have never really attempted to realistically 'bridge' that gap in prime movers. The Three Berliets they bought were fine machines but had a relatively short service life.

              I would most certainly replace the old, short 90mm gun as not being fit for purpose and get a new 90mm or 105mm eight-wheeler.
              Which was the plan on a Mowag based platform until some one on the infantry side blew the budget on the second batch of APCs. The Cav had been told. Mowag 6x6 with big gun.....were jumping up and down..and then were told to get another 10 years out of the AMLs because of the cost of the upgrades. Money went on APCs. Which in hindsight wasn't that bad as the first batch of Mowags were falling apart at the time.

              I was in the workshops in 2009 where there was a Mowag parked up outside still in Liberia colurs and off the road for at least three years at that point

              The 90s and 20s from the same mission were under canvass never to move again

              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • #22
                Arrgh!!!! The IMO monster ate the attachments.

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                • #23
                  Arrgh!!!! The IMO monster ate the attachments.
                  FCUK!
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                  • #24
                    I'm not wanting to get into the whole Irish Army vs British Army thing.

                    But is the British Army's newly evolving Light Calvary role something the Irish Army could adopt in conjunction with the relatively small number of armoured vehicles they operate?

                    This is a result of lessons learnt in Iraq and Afghanistan.

                    This new Reserve Unit has just been formed in Scotland and Northern Ireland http://www.army.mod.uk/armoured/regiments/28480.aspx

                    Light and agile recce specialists with the vehicles and firepower to extract themselves out of contact with enemy forces.





                    Also I believe to be used to screen and protect the flanks of logistics convoys etc.

                    Useful for UN missions?

                    I suppose my point is Calvary don't necessarily have to operate tanks / armoured cars.
                    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                    • #25




                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • #26
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                        • #27
                          Just for Gttc

                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • #28
                            I always wondered why the DF was fixated on cavalry when such creatures were not in the DF's original heritage and seem to have evolved for parade purposes and the tie-in to the Curragh horsey set, rather than any practical need. The Brits have always had "light" troops of one kind or another but then they have also had the great mass of men, tanks and artillery to take on large enemy forces or to occupy large swathes of ground or conduct defence in depth of large fronts and the means to move them, such as transport airpower and helicopters and the logistics train to support them. The DF can't do things on that scale so it can only be a light force, by default.
                            Cavalry or light troops or ISTAR troops have to be fully mechanised, preferably airmobile and self-sufficient logistically by virtue of need. So, they need all the wheels they can get, armoured or not, to be mobile enough to do their job. Right now, it appears to me that to put a DF company abroad in a semi-static role, you need a regiment or equivalent to sustain them, in terms of consumption of resources, such as spare men, tools, kit, weapons, vehicles, portable housing, engineering,etc,etc.

                            regards
                            GttC

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                            • #29
                              Is that a Diamond T, Murph? I drove one in Syria in 1997! Long story...

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by spider View Post
                                I'm not wanting to get into the whole Irish Army vs British Army thing.

                                But is the British Army's newly evolving Light Calvary role something the Irish Army could adopt in conjunction with the relatively small number of armoured vehicles they operate?

                                This is a result of lessons learnt in Iraq and Afghanistan.

                                This new Reserve Unit has just been formed in Scotland and Northern Ireland http://www.army.mod.uk/armoured/regiments/28480.aspx

                                Light and agile recce specialists with the vehicles and firepower to extract themselves out of contact with enemy forces.





                                Also I believe to be used to screen and protect the flanks of logistics convoys etc.

                                Useful for UN missions?

                                I suppose my point is Calvary don't necessarily have to operate tanks / armoured cars.
                                I had a conversation with an officer in the old 31 Cav Sqn, I believe he is now gone. He recommended something very similar. Soft top Land Rovers that could have up to a 12.7mm mounted for reserve cav units to give a light cavalry combat recce skill set. He saw it as a low cost high return suggestion which would give a huge boost in capability.
                                Last edited by ODIN; 10 September 2014, 22:41.
                                What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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