DAIL COMMITTEE REPORT
Wednesday, 12 November 2014
Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality Debate
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Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl: I will be brief because, as we are aware, there is a critical debate under way in the Dáil at present. I thank you, Chairman, for facilitating today’s meeting. It is very important that the committee agreed to invite the representative body before it and it is to be lauded on its actions.
Given the day that is in it, the time available will not perhaps allow for the type of in-depth discussion we need. Could we reserve time in the coming weeks, no later than that, for the committee to engage constructively on the points that have been brought to our attention? When the Reserve Defence Force representatives came before us in April of last year it is probably true to say that some people felt they were being perhaps a little alarmist. A year and a half later there is a sense of fatalism in what they have said to us. I had many questions to put, but what is really needed in the situation is an affirmation on the part of the committee of a recognition of the importance of the Reserve Defence Force. The reserves are a critical part of the defence structure on this island. We must look at the issue in the context of the fact that we have pared back our Permanent Defence Force to 9,500 members. We have the lowest expenditure among neutral countries as a percentage of GDP in the European Union. The Reserve Defence Force is operating way below its establishment strength.
We have been asked to conduct a review. I have one question in that respect. Is the committee being asked to conduct the review or is it considered that we should secure outside expertise to carry it out on our behalf? I think I speak for members on all sides when I say that there is a recognition among the body politic of the importance of reservists. If it is the sense of the witnesses that they have been set up by faceless bureaucrats within a system, the purpose of which is to make them fail, then that is not our ambition for them, which is to see them realise their full potential. The committee should and will do everything in its power to work with reservists to ensure the sort of priority they deserve is given to them in the future.
Chairman: Does Deputy Ó Fearghaíl have any specific question?
Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl: None other than how they feel we should undertake the review to which they referred.
Chairman: They were interesting points. One point related to a legislative underpinning. Could the witnesses be more specific in that regard, perhaps not now but they could forward the information to us on specifically what they mean by that?
Mention was also made of meaningful engagement with employers. Again, that is very broad and very non-specific.
Mr. Patrick Mulley: Might I respond to the point?
Chairman: Before that I wish to allow Deputy Seán Kenny to contribute and then I will invite Mr. Mulley to speak.
Deputy Seán Kenny: I am standing in for my colleague, Senator Denis Landy, who cannot be present due to illness. He was a member of the FCA for a considerable period. I understand from the witnesses that their numbers have reduced to 1,734 from closer to 5,000. That is a drastic reduction.
I accept the comparison with the Garda Reserve which has an agreement with the Garda Síochána that its members will be released for duty and there will not be any adverse consequences for their careers, but the same is not true for the Reserve Defence Force. We must examine the matter to see whether it could be addressed by legislative underpinning or by means of regulation by the Minister. I am not sure but perhaps an employment regulation is required. Someone should not have to suffer for voluntary engagement with the Defence Forces and playing their part in serving their country. They should be given employment guarantees in that regard.
Chairman: Does anyone else wish to contribute?
Deputy Finian McGrath: I wish to ask a few questions later.
Chairman: Does anyone wish to respond to the questions?
Mr. Patrick Mulley: In response to the comparison we made with the Garda Reserve, when a reserve garda is in regular employment, a service level agreement is drawn up between the Garda Síochána and the employer in question. That includes an information pack for the employer from An Garda Síochána. We do not have a similar provision. One is on one’s own unless one has a job in the Civil Service or the public service. We seek a similar provision for the Naval Service Reserve. It is not a case of amending legislation at this point or introducing new legislation. An amendment to equality legislation to specify that a reservist could not be discriminated against because of his or her membership of the reserve might be sufficient.
Something like that might satisfy the legislators, rather than bringing in a whole raft of new legislation.
Deputy Finian McGrath: I wish to make a couple of points. First, I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their excellent submission. I agree with my colleague,
Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, that members value the Reserve Defence Forces and it is recognised across all the political parties. However, when one gets down to the nuts and bolts of this debate, it pertains to value for money. My initial reaction, when hearing that term, is that of course one must be responsible in that one is spending taxpayers' money in respect of the Reserve Defence Forces Representative Association. However, as far as I am concerned, I want commitment and dedication to the job in the Reserve Defence Forces. That would be my first priority and is what the State should seek. My first question relates to the association's submission, in which it states that 2,335 reservists must be recruited by 2016 to meet the establishment number and that this will be an extremely difficult target to reach. That target is a year and a half away. Why does the association say that and why will it be so difficult?
Mr. Martin Cooney: As for the reason it is difficult, if one looks at any recruitment campaign - say the last one that happened earlier this year - the upshot of the entire campaign is that for the formation in, for example, the Defence Forces training centre, DFTC, one gets a recruit platoon. I am unsure of the exact numbers but in general, one gets perhaps 50 people for that formation and then there are three formations. As for the current campaign that is ongoing again in the DFTC, I believe there are 80 applicants for that at present. In general, our figures show that for any one successful recruit, one needs four applicants. Consequently, just on a statistical level, to recruit 1,000 successful applicants, one would need 4,000 applications. That said, if one got the interest, the resources are not there to train them. One needs people on the ground to train reservists and I would challenge any semi-State or State body to recruit 1,000 people in a year in circumstances in which they must have the people undergo medical examinations and security checks, which can take anything from six to 12 weeks, as well as to undergo interviews and the entire process. Consequently, there are logistical issues with training that number of people, whereby one is trying to bring up part-time personnel on their spare time and using up their previous annual leave. One has a permanent force that has been under huge pressure since its reorganisation and there are the issues of all the administrative criteria, leaving aside the sheer numbers, which are huge.
Deputy Finian McGrath: That leads onto my second question. Basically, Mr. Cooney has indicated there is a huge cost issue. The next question I had intended to ask was on the overall cost of the Reserve Defence Forces. What is the current approximate cost in this regard and what is its cost-effectiveness?
Mr. Patrick Mulley: The current allocation for the Reserve Defence Forces on direct payment is €1.3 million, which equates to 0.29% of the complete defence budget. Originally, in 2013, we had an allocation of €2.3 million but that was reduced. Moreover, it has been reducing dramatically each year since 2009. We also had an allocation of 41,000 man-days but that number was slashed to 28,000 last year. We now have a situation whereby the resource allocation within which we must work is €1.3 million and our man-day allocation is 28,000. As my colleague stated, if we could recruit, we are prohibited because neither the resource allocation nor the man-day allocation is there. We have been painted into a corner, whereby we have no control over this whatsoever. That is the allocation we received and if that does not rise pro rata as people come in, we cannot reach the 4,000 establishment number. In fact, it is simple arithmetic. Four thousand people by seven days is 41,000 man-days so therefore, if they have restricted us, which they have, we cannot perform and cannot meet the key performance indicators, KPIs, as was mentioned earlier. We cannot meet the unit KPIs because the people do not have the allocation to train.
Deputy Finian McGrath: The current cost in 2014 is €1.3 million to the taxpayer.
Mr. Patrick Mulley: In direct payments to the Reserve Defence Forces, RDF.
Deputy Finian McGrath: Yes, that is the figure I was seeking.
Mr. Patrick Mulley: Yes.
Deputy Finian McGrath: As a layperson, that figure is far lower than I would have thought.
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Wednesday, 12 November 2014
Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality Debate
...........
Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl: I will be brief because, as we are aware, there is a critical debate under way in the Dáil at present. I thank you, Chairman, for facilitating today’s meeting. It is very important that the committee agreed to invite the representative body before it and it is to be lauded on its actions.
Given the day that is in it, the time available will not perhaps allow for the type of in-depth discussion we need. Could we reserve time in the coming weeks, no later than that, for the committee to engage constructively on the points that have been brought to our attention? When the Reserve Defence Force representatives came before us in April of last year it is probably true to say that some people felt they were being perhaps a little alarmist. A year and a half later there is a sense of fatalism in what they have said to us. I had many questions to put, but what is really needed in the situation is an affirmation on the part of the committee of a recognition of the importance of the Reserve Defence Force. The reserves are a critical part of the defence structure on this island. We must look at the issue in the context of the fact that we have pared back our Permanent Defence Force to 9,500 members. We have the lowest expenditure among neutral countries as a percentage of GDP in the European Union. The Reserve Defence Force is operating way below its establishment strength.
We have been asked to conduct a review. I have one question in that respect. Is the committee being asked to conduct the review or is it considered that we should secure outside expertise to carry it out on our behalf? I think I speak for members on all sides when I say that there is a recognition among the body politic of the importance of reservists. If it is the sense of the witnesses that they have been set up by faceless bureaucrats within a system, the purpose of which is to make them fail, then that is not our ambition for them, which is to see them realise their full potential. The committee should and will do everything in its power to work with reservists to ensure the sort of priority they deserve is given to them in the future.
Chairman: Does Deputy Ó Fearghaíl have any specific question?
Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl: None other than how they feel we should undertake the review to which they referred.
Chairman: They were interesting points. One point related to a legislative underpinning. Could the witnesses be more specific in that regard, perhaps not now but they could forward the information to us on specifically what they mean by that?
Mention was also made of meaningful engagement with employers. Again, that is very broad and very non-specific.
Mr. Patrick Mulley: Might I respond to the point?
Chairman: Before that I wish to allow Deputy Seán Kenny to contribute and then I will invite Mr. Mulley to speak.
Deputy Seán Kenny: I am standing in for my colleague, Senator Denis Landy, who cannot be present due to illness. He was a member of the FCA for a considerable period. I understand from the witnesses that their numbers have reduced to 1,734 from closer to 5,000. That is a drastic reduction.
I accept the comparison with the Garda Reserve which has an agreement with the Garda Síochána that its members will be released for duty and there will not be any adverse consequences for their careers, but the same is not true for the Reserve Defence Force. We must examine the matter to see whether it could be addressed by legislative underpinning or by means of regulation by the Minister. I am not sure but perhaps an employment regulation is required. Someone should not have to suffer for voluntary engagement with the Defence Forces and playing their part in serving their country. They should be given employment guarantees in that regard.
Chairman: Does anyone else wish to contribute?
Deputy Finian McGrath: I wish to ask a few questions later.
Chairman: Does anyone wish to respond to the questions?
Mr. Patrick Mulley: In response to the comparison we made with the Garda Reserve, when a reserve garda is in regular employment, a service level agreement is drawn up between the Garda Síochána and the employer in question. That includes an information pack for the employer from An Garda Síochána. We do not have a similar provision. One is on one’s own unless one has a job in the Civil Service or the public service. We seek a similar provision for the Naval Service Reserve. It is not a case of amending legislation at this point or introducing new legislation. An amendment to equality legislation to specify that a reservist could not be discriminated against because of his or her membership of the reserve might be sufficient.
Something like that might satisfy the legislators, rather than bringing in a whole raft of new legislation.
Deputy Finian McGrath: I wish to make a couple of points. First, I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their excellent submission. I agree with my colleague,
Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, that members value the Reserve Defence Forces and it is recognised across all the political parties. However, when one gets down to the nuts and bolts of this debate, it pertains to value for money. My initial reaction, when hearing that term, is that of course one must be responsible in that one is spending taxpayers' money in respect of the Reserve Defence Forces Representative Association. However, as far as I am concerned, I want commitment and dedication to the job in the Reserve Defence Forces. That would be my first priority and is what the State should seek. My first question relates to the association's submission, in which it states that 2,335 reservists must be recruited by 2016 to meet the establishment number and that this will be an extremely difficult target to reach. That target is a year and a half away. Why does the association say that and why will it be so difficult?
Mr. Martin Cooney: As for the reason it is difficult, if one looks at any recruitment campaign - say the last one that happened earlier this year - the upshot of the entire campaign is that for the formation in, for example, the Defence Forces training centre, DFTC, one gets a recruit platoon. I am unsure of the exact numbers but in general, one gets perhaps 50 people for that formation and then there are three formations. As for the current campaign that is ongoing again in the DFTC, I believe there are 80 applicants for that at present. In general, our figures show that for any one successful recruit, one needs four applicants. Consequently, just on a statistical level, to recruit 1,000 successful applicants, one would need 4,000 applications. That said, if one got the interest, the resources are not there to train them. One needs people on the ground to train reservists and I would challenge any semi-State or State body to recruit 1,000 people in a year in circumstances in which they must have the people undergo medical examinations and security checks, which can take anything from six to 12 weeks, as well as to undergo interviews and the entire process. Consequently, there are logistical issues with training that number of people, whereby one is trying to bring up part-time personnel on their spare time and using up their previous annual leave. One has a permanent force that has been under huge pressure since its reorganisation and there are the issues of all the administrative criteria, leaving aside the sheer numbers, which are huge.
Deputy Finian McGrath: That leads onto my second question. Basically, Mr. Cooney has indicated there is a huge cost issue. The next question I had intended to ask was on the overall cost of the Reserve Defence Forces. What is the current approximate cost in this regard and what is its cost-effectiveness?
Mr. Patrick Mulley: The current allocation for the Reserve Defence Forces on direct payment is €1.3 million, which equates to 0.29% of the complete defence budget. Originally, in 2013, we had an allocation of €2.3 million but that was reduced. Moreover, it has been reducing dramatically each year since 2009. We also had an allocation of 41,000 man-days but that number was slashed to 28,000 last year. We now have a situation whereby the resource allocation within which we must work is €1.3 million and our man-day allocation is 28,000. As my colleague stated, if we could recruit, we are prohibited because neither the resource allocation nor the man-day allocation is there. We have been painted into a corner, whereby we have no control over this whatsoever. That is the allocation we received and if that does not rise pro rata as people come in, we cannot reach the 4,000 establishment number. In fact, it is simple arithmetic. Four thousand people by seven days is 41,000 man-days so therefore, if they have restricted us, which they have, we cannot perform and cannot meet the key performance indicators, KPIs, as was mentioned earlier. We cannot meet the unit KPIs because the people do not have the allocation to train.
Deputy Finian McGrath: The current cost in 2014 is €1.3 million to the taxpayer.
Mr. Patrick Mulley: In direct payments to the Reserve Defence Forces, RDF.
Deputy Finian McGrath: Yes, that is the figure I was seeking.
Mr. Patrick Mulley: Yes.
Deputy Finian McGrath: As a layperson, that figure is far lower than I would have thought.
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