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  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
    oh GTTC...

    a Bn-sized BattleGroup that can mix it with pretty much anyone is expensive, and it runs the risk that it might be deployed somewhere dangerous, or worse, politically controversial and expensive.

    think Chad.

    a PK force that is limited from birth in what it can do is both cheaper and politically safer - when some appalling opportunity for a crunchy deployment rears its unwelcome head, the DOD/Govt can wheel out the 'outside of our doctrine/capability' line.

    remember: Cheap good. Expensive bad. Easy good. Difficult bad.
    We don’t have the resources to deploy a Bn Battlegroup overseas (We currently deploy a Bn minus to UNIFIL for example).

    Not sure where your going with the Chad example.

    Chad was an example of resources actually being put in place for once. The first 11 months of EUFOR cost the Irish taxpayer an additional € 59m plus normal pay and allowances

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      We don’t have the resources to deploy a Bn Battlegroup overseas (We currently deploy a Bn minus to UNIFIL for example).

      Not sure where your going with the Chad example.

      Chad was an example of resources actually being put in place for once. The first 11 months of EUFOR cost the Irish taxpayer an additional € 59m plus normal pay and allowances
      whhooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosssssshhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhh......

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      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
        whhooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosssssshhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhh......
        That was less the mach loop, and more the ISS going overhead

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        • I know the 120s go on tour but, as was pointed out by one NCO on a TV programme, "we don't go outside the coverage of mortars and we don't bring mortars out of camp", so, in effect, the AO consisted of a 120's range footprint and probably a silent prayer that no baddie rocks up with anything bigger than a Toyota technical with a Dshka or a Zsu-Zsu on it. Given the current very fluid situation on the Israel-Syria-Lebanon border, it might be no harm to have something a bit heavier on hand than a 30mm (and please don't automatically reply Javelin, as any Irish commander who fire more than a very few of those will be shat upon from a height, from home). Penny pinching to save using 90 or 105mm rounds, by firing 30mm, is alright for the Curragh but not when lads are facing potential aggression from tough, well armed bastards like Hezbullah or various armed parties from Syria.

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          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            I know the 120s go on tour but, as was pointed out by one NCO on a TV programme, "we don't go outside the coverage of mortars and we don't bring mortars out of camp", so, in effect, the AO consisted of a 120's range footprint and probably a silent prayer that no baddie rocks up with anything bigger than a Toyota technical with a Dshka or a Zsu-Zsu on it. Given the current very fluid situation on the Israel-Syria-Lebanon border, it might be no harm to have something a bit heavier on hand than a 30mm (and please don't automatically reply Javelin, as any Irish commander who fire more than a very few of those will be shat upon from a height, from home). Penny pinching to save using 90 or 105mm rounds, by firing 30mm, is alright for the Curragh but not when lads are facing potential aggression from tough, well armed bastards like Hezbullah or various armed parties from Syria.
            Whats the reasoning behind not taking the 105's on tour?
            'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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            • Mortars have been taken out of camp over in the Leb to provide cover for patrols in the past.
              I know cause I was on one such patrol and the BMR set up their tubes right outside the gates of our post just before we departed.
              We were expecting trouble that day.Thankfully we never got any.
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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              • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                I know the 120s go on tour but, as was pointed out by one NCO on a TV programme, "we don't go outside the coverage of mortars and we don't bring mortars out of camp", so, in effect, the AO consisted of a 120's range footprint and probably a silent prayer that no baddie rocks up with anything bigger than a Toyota technical with a Dshka or a Zsu-Zsu on it. Given the current very fluid situation on the Israel-Syria-Lebanon border, it might be no harm to have something a bit heavier on hand than a 30mm (and please don't automatically reply Javelin, as any Irish commander who fire more than a very few of those will be shat upon from a height, from home). Penny pinching to save using 90 or 105mm rounds, by firing 30mm, is alright for the Curragh but not when lads are facing potential aggression from tough, well armed bastards like Hezbullah or various armed parties from Syria.
                most armies have settled for the 30mm / 40mm GMG in fairness

                Originally posted by spider View Post
                Whats the reasoning behind not taking the 105's on tour?
                The French had 155s I think with UNIFIL

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                • Do the French still have their LeClerc's?

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                  • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                    Do the French still have their LeClerc's?
                    The still have around 200 Leclerc tanks operational with another 200 in storage. They have upgraded 70 of their GCT-155 to auf2 standard with another 180 in storage at present.

                    A dozen or two Leclerc's on the cheap to replace the Scorpions and AML90s would be a dream!

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                    • Ah come on now. Replacing a tracked 8 tonne light recce vehicle with a 55 tonne Main battle tank? The logistics alone are a non starter, not to mention the tactics and the fact we have no history of operating MBTs in the irish defence forces, and there is no place for them in the ORBAT. For training at home, you would require a garda escort to move any of the tanks by road (you won't be able to drive them on the road).
                      Should I mention we do not have the vehicles capable of transporting the tanks around this country, let alone overseas.
                      By comparison 3 Scorpions at a time could be carried on the current Army Low loaders.
                      Think smaller. We have so space on the island to train MBT crews. We barely have enough space to train wheeled AFV crews.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                      • I assume TS meant Leclerc’s with UNIFIL

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                        • Well seeing that the Scorpion was the replacement for the Comets (which would be considered an early form of MBT, though it replacement was on), why not move back to something with a bit of punch! No need to worry about training or transporting them here just have the French hand them over to us in Lebanon!

                          As for weight the BA is replacing their CVR(T)'s with the Ajax (Scout SV) which is currently 38tons and planned growth to 42t!

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                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            I assume TS meant Leclerc’s with UNIFIL
                            They did also have some GCT-155mm in UN service, there is a infamous video of one falling off a low loader!

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                            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              Well seeing that the Scorpion was the replacement for the Comets (which would be considered an early form of MBT, though it replacement was on), why not move back to something with a bit of punch! No need to worry about training or transporting them here just have the French hand them over to us in Lebanon!

                              As for weight the BA is replacing their CVR(T)'s with the Ajax (Scout SV) which is currently 38tons and planned growth to 42t!
                              Scorpion wasn't a replacement for Comet as the Scorpion was envisaged as a tracked recce vehicle as part of the Cavalry role at the time of its acceptance which had no relationship with Medium tanks of which the Comet was classed to be.

                              No need to worry about training or transporting them here just have the French hand them over to us in Lebanon!


                              So in your encyclopedic knowledge of tank warfare...how do you think we are going to train with them before they ever become deployable.

                              Mowag took two years in its basic format to be deployed ........

                              As for weight the BA is replacing their CVR(T)'s with the Ajax (Scout SV) which is currently 38tons and planned growth to 42t!
                              And guess what the ..The BA have the infra structure and logs to move them, even the Israelis when moving tanks in Lebanon use tank transporters to do so.


                              Posts like this really make me despondant......
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • given the restrictions on logistics and technical support, a replacement for Scorpion has got to be a MOWAG - unless you want to go ultra-Cav and use something like a Jackal.

                                the big question of course, one far more important than this or that vehicle, is what do you want it to do?

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