Originally posted by EUFighter
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Scorpion replacment?
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostScorpion wasn't a replacement for Comet as the Scorpion was envisaged as a tracked recce vehicle as part of the Cavalry role at the time of its acceptance which had no relationship with Medium tanks of which the Comet was classed to be.
So in your encyclopedic knowledge of tank warfare...how do you think we are going to train with them before they ever become deployable.
Mowag took two years in its basic format to be deployed ........
And guess what the ..The BA have the infra structure and logs to move them, even the Israelis when moving tanks in Lebanon use tank transporters to do so.
Posts like this really make me despondant......
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The French brought Leclercs to Unifil to make it clear to all potential enemies/State and non-State actors that they could and would fire back with a first-class MBT and that they also have a decent air force and navy within shouting distance........tanks are transported by wheeled transporters to save track life, engine and powertrain life and to avoid damaging roads. Tanks are perfectly capable of being used in Ireland, because our terrain is pretty much identical to the neighbours. Tanks, such as the Scorpion and Comets, were heavily restricted in Irish use because of the need and want to avoid paying for repairs to fences and roads and to avoid digging them out of soft ground, unlike the use of tanks in Europe , where tanks go where they like when they train and the various Armies fix the fences up later, so that crews learn how to use terrain to the fullest and not spend time worrying about the opinion of the IFA......I don't agree that a 30mm is sufficient as a main gun, as events in Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that even 30mm rounds were having trouble breaking into compound walls and dealing with enemies in heavily reinforced urban environments, so the Coalition troops had to fire off thousands of ATGMs as direct-fire weapons to achieve the same result as a 90 or 105mm round. I would prefer to see a combination of 30mm/90mm or even 105mm in the fleet so that an on-scene commander could use either as required.
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Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View PostThe French brought Leclercs to Unifil to make it clear to all potential enemies/State and non-State actors that they could and would fire back with a first-class MBT and that they also have a decent air force and navy within shouting distance........tanks are transported by wheeled transporters to save track life, engine and powertrain life and to avoid damaging roads. Tanks are perfectly capable of being used in Ireland, because our terrain is pretty much identical to the neighbours. Tanks, such as the Scorpion and Comets, were heavily restricted in Irish use because of the need and want to avoid paying for repairs to fences and roads and to avoid digging them out of soft ground, unlike the use of tanks in Europe , where tanks go where they like when they train and the various Armies fix the fences up later, so that crews learn how to use terrain to the fullest and not spend time worrying about the opinion of the IFA......I don't agree that a 30mm is sufficient as a main gun, as events in Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that even 30mm rounds were having trouble breaking into compound walls and dealing with enemies in heavily reinforced urban environments, so the Coalition troops had to fire off thousands of ATGMs as direct-fire weapons to achieve the same result as a 90 or 105mm round. I would prefer to see a combination of 30mm/90mm or even 105mm in the fleet so that an on-scene commander could use either as required.
I would have agreed previously but a 30mm & Javelin combination is probably more sustainable and affordable for our purposes. The DF is too small to have multiple vehicle types so MOWAGs it is. There are very few modern vehicles in production with a stabilised 90/105mm. And even fewer with them successfully on a MOWAG chassis
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Originally posted by DeV View PostWe also don’t have any training areas anywhere near large enough to exercise proper vehicle mounted ops...
I think I might look into this further, and I'll do it in two strands - the first is to invent a 'flying machine', perhaps with wings like a bird, and the second strand will be to invent a thing that can float on the sea, that you can steer, and make go to other places that are also on the sea. I think I'll call it (working title for the moment) a boat.
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Originally posted by ropebag View PostIf only there were other countries that Ireland had cordial military relationships with that did have such areas, and if only there was some way of moving people from Ireland to those places...
I think I might look into this further, and I'll do it in two strands - the first is to invent a 'flying machine', perhaps with wings like a bird, and the second strand will be to invent a thing that can float on the sea, that you can steer, and make go to other places that are also on the sea. I think I'll call it (working title for the moment) a boat.
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostYou really don't know when you are been trolled!Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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I think GTTC has made a very valid point around the deployment of AFVs and that is the availabilty of air cover or NGS, Tanks are a very vulnerable asset that all arms need to work with.
I do agree that the common chassis concept is a good idea and we do have enough training areas for these low intensity ops.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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The real question here is do we need a scorpion replacement? A tracked vehicle knowledge base is a nice to have, but is it something that we are likely to deploy at any point? Also, you need additional vehicles to haul them around the place. And an additional vehicle in the supply chain is just a bad idea at this point. A 90mm, similar to http://www.cmigroupe.com/cockerill-3000-series, on a MOWAG would probably make the most sense in terms or training, parts and logistics at this point in time.What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.
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in answer Odin, no we don't need a Scorpion replacement. Not in the sense of a tracked or 76mm gun platform anyway. Tracked Ops not part of our doctrine and as evidenced by the 20 odd years of the service it provided, never going to leave the island.
No justification whatsoever in buying something that will go the same way in the future.
What is needed is two things:
1. A larger calibre direct fire platform that will fit into current orbat and logs set up that can go overseas to provide a meaningful FP role (as others have said possibly
MOWAG but i wouldn't say absolute necessity to be same brand. Remember nobody liked the 90's turning up in Leb even though car it was on was a tin can!).
2. A serious look has to be taken at provision of indirect fire support and why it never leaves the gun park, i.e. bring 105's overseas.
Take for instance current Golan Op, a pair of guns in camp would have range for most of AO and would never have to leave position but would be a huge advantage in terms of covering patrols, etc.
Ops like Chad might need a bit more thought re. forward deploying guns but not impossible if the will was there!An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
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Originally posted by X-RayOne View Postin answer Odin, no we don't need a Scorpion replacement. Not in the sense of a tracked or 76mm gun platform anyway. Tracked Ops not part of our doctrine and as evidenced by the 20 odd years of the service it provided, never going to leave the island.
No justification whatsoever in buying something that will go the same way in the future.
What is needed is two things:
1. A larger calibre direct fire platform that will fit into current orbat and logs set up that can go overseas to provide a meaningful FP role (as others have said possibly
MOWAG but i wouldn't say absolute necessity to be same brand. Remember nobody liked the 90's turning up in Leb even though car it was on was a tin can!).
2. A serious look has to be taken at provision of indirect fire support and why it never leaves the gun park, i.e. bring 105's overseas.
Take for instance current Golan Op, a pair of guns in camp would have range for most of AO and would never have to leave position but would be a huge advantage in terms of covering patrols, etc.
Ops like Chad might need a bit more thought re. forward deploying guns but not impossible if the will was there!
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