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Scorpion replacment?

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  • why do you think a tracked recce vehicle is unsuitable for use in Ireland, when it has a lower footprint weight than most wheeled vehicles? People have this illusion that Ireland is unsuitable for tracked vehicles. The reality is that only parts of it are unusable for heavy tracked vehicles and most of it is passable for a Scorpion. What's likely to do for the Scorpion in Irish service is death by neglect, as funds are spent on the wheeled AFV fleet.

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    • The Scorpion's were a lip service to tracked vehicles/"tanks". Did we ever actually have enough, no. I honestly believe we should have gone for the FV107 Scimitar as a recce vehicle for all but a support troop with some Spartans and Scorpions. But anyway, doctrine for Cav/Armour seems to be up for review going by a previous post here, so the future should be interesting to say the least.
      What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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      • A lot of the country wouldn't be ideal tank country (eg steep valleys, deep/wide rivers, small bridges, canalised roads, mountains etc. Tank country would probably be the Midlands.

        On the other hand light tracked AFVs (such as the Scorpion family) would be probably able to traverse much of the country

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        • Originally posted by ODIN View Post
          The Scorpion's were a lip service to tracked vehicles/"tanks". Did we ever actually have enough, no. I honestly believe we should have gone for the FV107 Scimitar as a recce vehicle for all but a support troop with some Spartans and Scorpions. But anyway, doctrine for Cav/Armour seems to be up for review going by a previous post here, so the future should be interesting to say the least.
          Actually 1 ACS has the full establishment of Scorpions that would be required for a Squadron (but not the necessary APCs)

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            A lot of the country wouldn't be ideal tank country (eg steep valleys, deep/wide rivers, small bridges, canalised roads, mountains etc. Tank country would probably be the Midlands.

            On the other hand light tracked AFVs (such as the Scorpion family) would be probably able to traverse much of the country
            Midlands is bog whih would probably be unsuitable for nearly everything except Scorpions and the BVs

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            • Originally posted by apc View Post
              Midlands is bog whih would probably be unsuitable for nearly everything except Scorpions and the BVs
              Forgot about them

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              • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                They were able to upgrade them because they had so many. Wiki says 1500 FV101, 325 FV107, not to mention the 200 FV721 who donated their turrets. The L21 gun was ahead of its time when it came to recce vehicle armament. Medium calibre packing an armour piercing punch, with rapid fire. The same gun was used on the Warrior and Fox, the latter whose turrets ended up on old Scorp hulls(Becoming Sabre). Remember the Scorpion gun dates from the 1950s, and was first seen on the Saladin, scout car version of the Saracen so popular in NI during the troubles.
                When the Irish officer who became a crusty was mounting HMGs to the roof of scorpions, they should have been converting the engines to Diesel, and replacing the Scorp turret with the Scimitar. Indeed the original order was far too small, and twice the amount, with a mix of turret, would have served the country better, perhaps even serving overseas. Why they decided that only certain cars would carry the Gen 1 Night vision is also a mystery. Did they not intend to use them at night?
                The priority when conversion should have happened here though was to fit a modern turret to the AFV that was actually being sent overseas, the Panhard AML60. Many trials happened during this time, including the Hughes Chain gun and the FV721 Turret, but nothing came of it, with a compromise found by mounting a 0.5 HMG inside the turret (instead of on the roof). It was unsuitable, but an improvement on a hole where a mortar once was. Eventually in the late 90s, all AML60s were refitted with a 20mm cannon, which had a higher rate of fire, but lighter punch than the L21. Less than ten years later we see Irish Mowag AFVs fitted with the same Chain gun evaluated for the Panhard in the mid 80s.

                They have no function in the order of battle. They are a tracked recce vehicle that only operate in a country where tracked recce vehicles are unsuitable. Use em or lose em.
                Believe it or not but the DoD paid extra when buying the Scorps to have the NBC kit (which was standard) removed.
                As it was to scary or sumtin.

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                • I take it the cage like object shrouding the main armament on this Scorpion is for camouflaging (outline breaking) purposes?
                  "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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                  • Tanks and other tracked AFVs and vehicles have been successfully operated in rougher country than Ireland. It doesn't need to be billiard-table flat or desert-dry. You're not asking the tank operators to drive to the top of Lug or Carrauntoohil or scuttle across soaking wet swamp. A Scorpion or equivalent light AFV will go where any tractor will go. You ask the ESB or Coillte where they take their Landys, Unimogs and lots of other heavy 4x4s. Ironically, British Scorpions were able to traverse the peatlands of the Falklands as Argentinian AML 90s were confined to graded tracks or main roads.

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                    • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                      Tanks and other tracked AFVs and vehicles have been successfully operated in rougher country than Ireland. It doesn't need to be billiard-table flat or desert-dry. You're not asking the tank operators to drive to the top of Lug or Carrauntoohil or scuttle across soaking wet swamp. A Scorpion or equivalent light AFV will go where any tractor will go. You ask the ESB or Coillte where they take their Landys, Unimogs and lots of other heavy 4x4s. Ironically, British Scorpions were able to traverse the peatlands of the Falklands as Argentinian AML 90s were confined to graded tracks or main roads.
                      the objection to the Scorpians isn't based on their mobility, which as you said is proven in rougher, boggier places than Ireland, its based on two fundamental problems: firstly that their vunerabilty to IED strikes makes them politically unusable in an Irish context, and secondly that the number of them in service is too small to have a deployable, usable asset.

                      they could be made useful - new gun and ammunition, new ISTAR systems, additional armour etc.. but they would still be horribly vunerable to an IED strike because of the nature of their design - and therefore they'd probably go undeployed - the upgrade would cost a fortune in Irish defence budget terms, and you'd still only have 6 of them.

                      i like the Scorpian concept - and having been a member of a force that got tied to roads in a viscious armour vs IED circle, i'm fully aware that the best defence against an IED is to not drive over it and that mobility is the key to that - but i'm afraid i take the view that they are part of a doctrinal ship that has already sailed.

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                      • Any upgrade would have to include making the whole fleet serviceable.

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                        • To fully equip the Bde Cav Sqn your talking approx 18 armoured vehicles (2 Sqns total of 36).

                          They could be a combination of LTAVs, CRVs and MRVs. Personally I'd go for just CRVs and MRVs (to ensure more firepower is available).

                          So what then for 1 ACS?
                          Either upgrade the Scorpion to get another 10-15 years out of them (of questionable VFM IMHO).

                          Replace with a new vehicle with heavier firepower than MRV (the 40/30mm combo are versatile though). If it to be done use MOWAG hull (better VFM).

                          No sense IMHO having 1ACS with the same equipment as a Bde Cav Sqn (they are the strategic reserve).

                          So the only other option is close down 1ACS (but they with 1Mech are the strategic reserve)

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                          • if they have no real utility, then bite the bullet, stick a couple in Museums and stick the rest on the range or flog them to collectors and go full Mowag thereafter.

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                            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                              i like the Scorpian concept - and having been a member of a force that got tied to roads in a viscious armour vs IED circle, i'm fully aware that the best defence against an IED is to not drive over it and that mobility is the key to that - but i'm afraid i take the view that they are part of a doctrinal ship that has already sailed.
                              So basically tracks over wheels?

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                              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                                So basically tracks over wheels?
                                Jackal 2 ?

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