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  • #46
    I have just spent the last half an hour reading through another sites thread (ie protacpx.com) and mentioned there was the offer of 275 Scorpians from Britian in 2004 which was turned down(imagine, every cav sqn with scorpians). Posted yesterday was that the Scorpians are to be rebuilt
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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    • #47
      To Blue max..pity you weren't with the Brits in the falklands then,( they could have done with your expertise)..as they were not deployed operationally there...in contradiction to what the DFTC website says..yes they went..but even the bits were afraid they might vanish without trace in the bogs!

      And if they are so brilliant why did they get rid of them ..even after the fume extractor problem was solved..
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • #48
        Attached Files

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        • #49
          as they were not deployed operationally there...in contradiction to what the DFTC website says..yes they went..but even the bits were afraid they might vanish without trace in the bogs!
          Don't go telling that to the Blues & Royals..










          Collection of artwork depicting military events of the Falklands Conflict of 1982.


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          • #50
            Only used in mopping up ops...Blues and royals would be the first to admit it.....they weren't deployed in their intended role
            In hind sight ..the Band Rs would have been better of on horse back!
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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            • #51


              Interesting article. I am almost certain there was a brief Scorpion v Panhard AML 90 engagement in the Falklands, can't find any references to it tonight but I will dig out a few old books and have a look.
              'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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              • #52
                Hi there
                I read somwhere that the Scorpion/Scimitar crews were dreading an encounter with the AML-90s on the basis that the 90mm gun outranged the CVR(T)s guns. The AMLs were not, as far as I know, deployed off firm ground and were captured intact. From a later war, I recall a Scimitar crew in Bosnia, in a turret-top TV interview, bemoaning the lack of the 76mm gun for bunker-busting.They demonstrated this by shooting up a Serbian bunker and not causing any damage to the interior. Incidentally, the Rarden magazine can hold at least three or four 30mm clips at once and give a modicum of sustained fire.Didn't one get credited with shooting down a Skyhawk in the Falklands? Must be some good, after all.
                regards
                GttC

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner
                  Incidentally, the Rarden magazine can hold at least three or four 30mm clips at once and give a modicum of sustained fire.Didn't one get credited with shooting down a Skyhawk in the Falklands? Must be some good, after all.
                  regards
                  GttC
                  Two clips. Six rounds total. Same as all the other Rarden-armed vehicles.

                  NTM
                  Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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                  • #54
                    Only used in mopping up ops.
                    Wrong

                    Blues and royals would be the first to admit it
                    No they would not, have you spoken to them about it?


                    they weren't deployed in their intended role
                    Yes they were...if you are talking from an Armd Recce point of view there are many more considerations to be taken account of: the fluidity of the conflict, battle org etc, as opposed to the terrain factor which you have singled out.


                    In hind sight ..the Band Rs would have been better of on horse back!
                    ... WTF over.


                    "After 2 Para has finished marching that Sunday evening (13th) from Furze Bush Pass, supporting fire is opened on 'Rough Diamond' at 9.15 pm, and 30 minutes later, D Coy crosses its start line backed up by the fire of four Scimitars and Scorpions". This is not a "mopping up" role.


                    Last edited by HE_Load; 16 February 2006, 14:35.

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                    • #55
                      Not its not a mopping up role......merely an artists rendition....and it certainly ain't Armoured Recce!
                      There was a certain misconception that people had at the time regarding the deployability of AMLs. Yes in certain situations they would have been superior to the CVRTs but as the south africans had leaerned with the ELAND...take them off road...especially into wet areas and you are in big trouble.

                      As for fire power they are about equal and it would have been down to tactics and training in any fighting..the CVRTs having the greater mobility off road....and speed on road.....but lacking the manoueverability of the AMLs.

                      As in all forms of mechanised warfare ..if you don't have the definete edge in fire power and manouverability ..you don't engage.

                      As for the horse element what was intended was under the conditions ..given the sudden loss of helios...lack of cross country mobilty except on foot....and general lack of confidence in the armoured option ...because of the battle ..or lack of consideration....horseback mounted troops would probably have had greater mobilty than other methods available at the time.

                      Given that the land based engagements were a very low tech affair and the Brits Regular forces.5 brigade, were so far up their own arses about their own capabilities.....shortages of ammunition..etc...it was a damn close run thing as in the words of one authour.

                      I agree with Murph the armour played a negligble part in the whole thing and was only deployed in the latter stages instead of being deployed ahead of any brigade as per the concept of Armoured recon...rather than being used as fire support as depicted in the rendering...which is only a secondary tasking of any Cavalry unit...which The Blues and Royals are!

                      It is wrong to depict these vehiclers as force mulitpliers..as they were only used as support.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • #56
                        having read the attachment at some lenght..I still maintain the case that the CVRTs were not deployed in their intend role as Recce vehicles are were employed as fire support vehicles...so that role was not the primary intended role of any cavalry unit.

                        Not wanting to take from that role...it would show that the commanders as ususal..as in all armies oour own included are slow to fully utilise Cavalry to its maximum potential and usualy only give them singular taskings rather than the multi tasking which they train for.

                        Cav can be formidible force mutipliers when deployed correctly..but are under utilised when used in imitation roles such as fire support...flank protect and their many other roles,
                        The B and Rs certainly deemed this to be the case on their return from the falklands as they felt if the battlefield commanders had understod their multiple capabilities fully they would have been more usefully deployed in all types of engagements.
                        I am not trying to under mine the roles carried out..just stating that the Skorpion..its crews and capabilities...as our own cavalry units are rarely deployed to their full potential..with the exception in our own armies case of a recent operation in liberia.

                        Even if you want to examine their role overseas at the moment..they mainly carry out convoy protection duties....which again is a secondary role..purely suited to wheeled rather than tracked vehicles.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Harmon Rabb
                          As for the horse element what was intended was under the conditions ..given the sudden loss of helios...lack of cross country mobilty except on foot....and general lack of confidence in the armoured option ...because of the battle ..or lack of consideration....horseback mounted troops would probably have had greater mobilty than other methods available at the time.
                          .
                          I've heard of this in the Rhodesian bush war in the 80's, they used troops on horseback to track and insurgents and call in the fireforces on their positions. Cannot remember what the particlar unit was called will try and find it out.
                          Lifes a bitch, so be her pimp!

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                          • #58
                            Greys Scouts being the unit in Rhodesia...the Yanks also used them in Afghanistan.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                            • #59
                              Having just checked it out..there was a total of 4 scorpions and 4 scimitars and 1 sultan deployed to the falklands. These were split into two troops..of two types per troop.

                              They were used as fire support...and taxis.

                              One was lost to an ani personel mine...and one suffered gear box failure.

                              There were no inter armour engagements as the Argie AML 90s never left Stanley.

                              The Blues and Royals Troop were awarded the grand total of three mentions in dispactches..suffered no casualties..fire 120 rounds of amo per scorion......and the troop was comanded by LT Ian Jones.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • #60
                                would have been down to tactics and training in any fighting
                                This is a huge factor in any conflict.

                                the CVRTs having the greater mobility off road....and speed on road.....but lacking the manoueverability of the AMLs.
                                CVRT far out manoeuvre an AML at every level Harmon on road/ off road, speed of engagement, ability to break contact etc.

                                horseback mounted troops would probably have had greater mobilty than other methods available at the time.
                                Yes using them for hauling supplies etc may be used in poor terrain e.g Afganistan. Using them in high intensity conflict....not a good option, direct and indirect fires in modern conflict would wreak havoc.Planning and logistical considerations: Ride up to assy area leave the horses and advance to contact?Noise discipline..loss of the element of surprise before it gets "noisy" with arty fire.Many many more considerations that would need to be taken into account.Thats another topic.

                                It is wrong to depict these vehiclers as force mulitpliers..as they were only used as support
                                These vehicles were a HUGE force multiplier
                                "...by which time 2 Para has taken the whole feature at a cost of three men killed, considerably aided by the fire of the Scorpions and Scimitars ".
                                Armoured vehicles are a force multiplier when used in the fire support role, they had a huge impact in this engagement., along with other all arms employed. Your argument is absolutely flawed here.

                                I still maintain the case that the CVRTs were not deployed in their intend role as Recce vehicles are were employed as fire support vehicles...so that role was not the primary intended role of any cavalry unit.
                                I disagree once more, they British Forces had a very good idea as to the location of Argentine positions, they had obtained this information from SF sources on the ground and recce which was conducted by organic ground forces as well as aerial recon. The use of Armd recce was not essential in this case, why expose the vehicles to Argentine defensive fires. I would agree with how the commander employed them, he was successful in his mission.

                                The B and Rs certainly deemed this to be the case on their return from the falklands as they felt if the battlefield commanders had understod their multiple capabilities fully they would have been more usefully deployed in all types of engagements.
                                I have not read of any such observations, yes there may well have been other elements of that conflict where they could have been used and were not. This may be due to a number of variables: Cautious commander etc. Lessons are learned, expierence is gained.

                                Even if you want to examine their role overseas at the moment..they mainly carry out convoy protection duties....which again is a secondary role__________________
                                Of course they are conducting one of their secondry roles, they are now working in an area of non-conflict. Things have stabilised, they are there for force protection,the proverbial "hand with big stick".There is no need for conduct of Armd Recce operations in that A.O. other than route recce maybe.

                                ..purely suited to wheeled rather than tracked vehicles.
                                Another alternate argument where I disagree with you. The majority of the tracks in Liberia away from the more urban populated districts actually favour tracked platforms due to the tropical climate and its effects on dirt tracks making them very much anti wheel.
                                Last edited by HE_Load; 16 February 2006, 14:40.

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