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  • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
    The Belgians are due to replace the Piranhas from 2025, with the French VBMR Griffon in the taxi role and the EBRC Jaguar for support. The Jaguar carries a 40mm cannon and also has guided missiles for the heavier targets. Both will be 25 tonne vehicles.
    https://www.armyrecognition.com/june..._22306174.html
    The French design their armoured forces around expeditionary operations in Africa where maintaining tracked vehicles is difficult and they seem to prefer fast, light and wheeled (I know they also bring the Leclercs). It seems to me that both their concept of ops and experience have a lot that should be of interest to Ireland.

    There is also the possibility that the Belgian 90mm turret decision was pure pork barrel.
    The only producer of the ammunition is in the constituency of the Belgian Defence Minister at the time of the contract.
    https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...s-ensue-01872/
    EBRC isn’t in production yet that would be my worry

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      EBRC isn’t in production yet that would be my worry
      Oh I agree, we should not go that route until after the French and Belgians field it.
      If we want something now it should be proven and powerful, which still means 105 or 120.
      The new 90 seems a solution in search of a problem in my view. It would probably be stuck on a Mowag which involves replicating a design the Belgians are dumping and limits us to one single ammo factory.

      If we are not buying now then waiting for both the Jaguar and better Defence budgets is attractive. The French are offsetting the loss of the AMX 10’s 105 by sticking guided missiles on to supplement the 40. That has the attractiveness of a main gun you don’t mind shooting often backed up by a solid punch if a nasty hard target comes around.
      But then we have the specifically Irish drawback of the DoD not wanting to buy missiles and so looking for a special Irish variant that is not fitted with it. Therefore making it a pointless purchase.

      Comment


      • I’ve just had a proper read about the missile. It is to replace the Milan as a man-portable ATGM and is only entering French service now. Be important to see if it gets any international sales by the time the Jaguar starts entering French service in 2020, if so it could then serve as a replacement for our Milans and so increase the attractiveness of the Jaguar package.
        The 40 is the CT40 firing telescoped ammunition. Also untested, but due to be fitted to the UK’s Ajax so we should see feedback from the British before the French field it.

        Th consortium building both Griffon and Jaguar are required to keep cost per vehicle at €1 million. The Belgian contract is for €1.1 billion for “60 Jaguar and 417 Griffon vehicles...includes spare parts and secure communications equipment ” (Wikipedia). Get the same deal and we could have 80 griffons and 10 Jaguars for about 220 million.
        Last edited by expat01; 24 November 2017, 10:35.

        Comment


        • MILAN was replaced in Irish service over 10 years ago. I’d want commonality as it isn’t as if hundreds are going to fired a year or that we are going to have 100 vehicles in service.

          Realistically is it worth going for 40mm CTA? Is there that much of a difference with 30mm? (I don’t know hence the question)

          There is more than 1 type of 90mm gun and more than 1 manufacturer of 90mm ammo (but they aren’t necessarily interchangeable)

          Of course a 105 is an option but if we are going for sticking a turret on a MOWAG is it suitable?

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          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            The South Africans were compelled to use the 90mm against T55s and other Russian made armour as their heavy Olifants with 105s could not move through the bush country as well as the wheeled armour. Several times, the 90mm gun had to fire multiple shots to get destructive kills against T55s, especially against the turrets. An advantage of the short 90mm was it's ability to be traversed in heavy woodland, whereas the 100mm of the T55 could not and some kills happened because of this. The South Africans were very aware of the limitations of the gun, which is why they made more effort to get the Olifants forward, but this led to more mine casualties and it made recovery harder. As for more modern warfare, Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other more recent wars, have shown the utility of a direct fire gun, to supplement the missile and the mortar. Ireland isn't going to buy MBTs or tracks of any kind so a good wheeled AFV is all that's left, so a good 90mm, to supplement the 30mm and the GMG and the mortar, will have to do. It would be nice to have a wheeled 105, but I suspect that that is one leap too far for the DF.
            the only problem being that the South Africans, as a direct consequence of this experience set about developing a 30mm cannon and their ratel replacements direct fire variant will have a 30mm.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by paul g View Post
              the only problem being that the South Africans, as a direct consequence of this experience set about developing a 30mm cannon and their ratel replacements direct fire variant will have a 30mm.
              Yes, but with an Ingwe ATGM launcher added on...also their mortar carrier is only going to have a 60mm...so you'd have to question their rational.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                ...Realistically is it worth going for 40mm CTA? Is there that much of a difference with 30mm? (I don’t know hence the question)...
                Not really - 40mm isn't that much better than lots of 30mm. There's nothing that 40 can do that 30 can't - it might do it a bit quicker, or at a slightly greater range - but it's not the difference between a 9mm pistol and a 5.56 rifle.

                40mm won't do what 30mm also won't do - which is go far enough to hit rocket or mortar firing positions - while 30mm is fine for brassing up soft vehicles, IFV, and dug in MG positions.

                40mm isn't going to do much more damage to a modern MBT than 30mm - like 30mm you might get a mobility or mission kill, but you aren't going to destroy it anymore than you would with a 30mm, so it seems a bit of a waste of time.

                The problem isn't 30mm, it's a lack of organic or immediately available firepower for ranges greater than Javelin will achieve but less than the maximum ranges of weapons that are commonplace among every non-state actor outside of Europe.

                A 105mm armed MOWAG isn't really going to change that, so it seems to offer little for the effort and cost of fielding it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                  Not really - 40mm isn't that much better than lots of 30mm. There's nothing that 40 can do that 30 can't - it might do it a bit quicker, or at a slightly greater range - but it's not the difference between a 9mm pistol and a 5.56 rifle.

                  40mm won't do what 30mm also won't do - which is go far enough to hit rocket or mortar firing positions - while 30mm is fine for brassing up soft vehicles, IFV, and dug in MG positions.

                  40mm isn't going to do much more damage to a modern MBT than 30mm - like 30mm you might get a mobility or mission kill, but you aren't going to destroy it anymore than you would with a 30mm, so it seems a bit of a waste of time.

                  The problem isn't 30mm, it's a lack of organic or immediately available firepower for ranges greater than Javelin will achieve but less than the maximum ranges of weapons that are commonplace among every non-state actor outside of Europe.

                  A 105mm armed MOWAG isn't really going to change that, so it seems to offer little for the effort and cost of fielding it.
                  Neither is a 120mm armed MBT

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                    The problem isn't 30mm, it's a lack of organic or immediately available firepower for ranges greater than Javelin will achieve but less than the maximum ranges of weapons that are commonplace among every non-state actor outside of Europe.
                    Greater than 2,500 - 4,000 metres? What is the only thing any actor has that beats that?
                    Anything greater is artillery.

                    I think the only reason 40mm came up is because it’s part of a particular package..and one that isn’t proven yet.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                      the only problem being that the South Africans, as a direct consequence of this experience set about developing a 30mm cannon and their ratel replacements direct fire variant will have a 30mm.
                      Don’t forget that, even if the terrain doesn’t allow for the ever-extended Olifant MBT, the SANDF fields that in organic formations including ATGM firing Rooikats and G6 self propelled 155 artillery. 30mm - firing Badgers aren’t meant to operate in a vacuum.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                        The problem isn't 30mm, it's a lack of organic or immediately available firepower for ranges greater than Javelin will achieve but less than the maximum ranges of weapons that are commonplace among every non-state actor outside of Europe.
                        HMG

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                        • Given the abilities of the new 70mm air to ground rockets, with terminal guidance and so on, it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to fit a small launcher for them to a vehicle.

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                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            Given the abilities of the new 70mm air to ground rockets, with terminal guidance and so on, it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to fit a small launcher for them to a vehicle.
                            Someone has already thought of that:
                            We told you about the Supacat LRV 600 when it was launched at DSEI 15. When we went by to see it this year, it was fitted with a rocket dispenser mounted to ...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                              Don’t forget that, even if the terrain doesn’t allow for the ever-extended Olifant MBT, the SANDF fields that in organic formations including ATGM firing Rooikats and G6 self propelled 155 artillery. 30mm - firing Badgers aren’t meant to operate in a vacuum.
                              I know, and not a low velocity 90mm round anyplace to be found

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                              • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                                I know, and not a low velocity 90mm round anyplace to be found
                                If you want a HP gun there is the Centauro II....

                                Or if you want to go with a Piranha...here's the Cokerill 105MM HP gun

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