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Scorpion replacment?

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  • that all depends on how much extra tat is loaded into each vehicle; AT-4s, extra fuel, extra rounds for the 12.7/30mm/40mm and all the odds and sods that soldiers generate. It'd be easy to add a ton of extra crap to a vehicle...

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    • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
      Which gets me to wondering how much weight do these weapons systems add to the all up weight of the vehicle and how is performance effected. Do we end up with a situation like Liberia where the support vehicles couldn't keep up with the troop carrying vehicles?
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Yes they have that turret and gun on a MOWAG Piranha
      Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
      that all depends on how much extra tat is loaded into each vehicle; AT-4s, extra fuel, extra rounds for the 12.7/30mm/40mm and all the odds and sods that soldiers generate. It'd be easy to add a ton of extra crap to a vehicle...
      Well in this case we are talking a turret with 90mm gun, 90mm and 7.62mm ammo. It has 3 crew and no dismounts.

      I’d say the centre of gravity is greatly effected

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      • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
        that all depends on how much extra tat is loaded into each vehicle; AT-4s, extra fuel, extra rounds for the 12.7/30mm/40mm and all the odds and sods that soldiers generate. It'd be easy to add a ton of extra crap to a vehicle...
        The turret for the AML 90 was juts over a tonne on the AML 60 turret, to put some idea of scale on it. There were no ancilliaries such as power mounting etc.

        I'd be going with closer to a couple of tonnes if not more and increased weight due to larger ammunition and possible increased storage. Even if you lose the trp carrying capacity you now have to increase the crew by at least one...... CoG changes massively plus you have a 4ft turret standing on an already very high platform... hardly stealthy........if anything a nice big target.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • I'd imagine the Mowag people have run the numbers on weights of each type of vehicle; 90 turret, 12.7 turret, RWS turret and so on and have done the centre of gravity calculations. It's a given at this stage that a Mowag can carry the 90 turret and do so without any fear of falling over, unless the crew are idiots and drive up unsuitable slopes. This is not the bad old days of the Unimog armoured car or the UK's Fox armoured car, both of which had bad reputations for rolling over. The designers of modern armoured vehicles are making them taller and heavier, so if someone has an issue, it's the people who buy them without challenging the designers. It makes them harder to fit aboard ships and aircraft and even lowloaders and as Murph said, it makes them into even more obvious targets. When an eight-wheeler is tipping 35 tons, it's getting out of hand. That's in the region of half the weight of the bigger MBTs, which is a joke.

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          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            I'd imagine the Mowag people have run the numbers on weights of each type of vehicle; 90 turret, 12.7 turret, RWS turret and so on and have done the centre of gravity calculations. It's a given at this stage that a Mowag can carry the 90 turret and do so without any fear of falling over, unless the crew are idiots and drive up unsuitable slopes. This is not the bad old days of the Unimog armoured car or the UK's Fox armoured car, both of which had bad reputations for rolling over. The designers of modern armoured vehicles are making them taller and heavier, so if someone has an issue, it's the people who buy them without challenging the designers. It makes them harder to fit aboard ships and aircraft and even lowloaders and as Murph said, it makes them into even more obvious targets. When an eight-wheeler is tipping 35 tons, it's getting out of hand. That's in the region of half the weight of the bigger MBTs, which is a joke.
            While I take your point about the weight issue, the reality is the demands of the Western Public/Politicians in regards to safety of the troops means that the weight isn't going to go down, I mean look at the heavy units that the Israelis are deploying now at 60 tons.

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            • If you are sticking a 90mm gun on a Mowag, then you're making it more of a target. At that stage looking at applique armour or similar is appropriate. Consider the implications of that added to the weight numbers.

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              • Sticking the 90 on a six or eight wheeler is old news now; the concept is well proven as a technological concept and combat proven; the decision to add applique armour is often up to the field commander on the day. I've just watched a French video of Op Serval (Mali) and they were using AMX 10RC, VCBIs (with 20mm), Caesar truck artillery, Tiger gunships, Pumas, Gazelles , Saviem trucks, AA52s and Famas, etc all lifted in by C160s and Hercules. Applique fitted as required. Expected opponents have RPG-7 and AK and PKM and multiple mines and IEDs. They made two 1000 km convoy marches and several other 500 km marches and booted the enemy out, with the aid of the local Malian Army and the Chadians. The 90 and 20mm were used to either smash bunkers and strong points or blow down walls to allow troops to enter buildings. The newest and best kit they had was the datalinking stuff; lesson learned; the kit doesn't have to be the newest and shiniest, it just has to work and the Army has to commit it's resources to keep it running.

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                • Before anything D cav would want to have an idea of the type of vehicle he need to fill the roles assigned to the corps and yes the corps needs to be redefined. Commonality with a mowag platform is the way it will more than likely go. but i believe scorpion replacement should be tracked so the CV-90 would be my preferred choose
                  i beleive armour troop should consisted of CV-90s, recce troop id perfer a jackel type vehical and keep your mowag and rg32 in admin troop. again its a wish list but i believe this would give a squadron an all round go anywhere troop with enough firepower to get out of trouble as quick as it can get into it.
                  Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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                  • CV 90 is an IFV is intended to be deployed as support for MBTs and even if bought as a stand alone plat form has all the down falls of employing MBTs or other tracked vehicles in that it has to be carried to where is going to be deployed.

                    TBH I think the only option is more MRV 's in order to keep commonality and reduce running costs.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                    • Agreed; all it would give is practise in hauling tracked vehicles around and the grief attached to changing tracks and crews would not get real time practise in driving and crewing. With Mowags, you just get in and go; I see them very often where I live and their ability to move quickly and get around in confined areas, such as tight backroads, is excellent......I suspect that someone upstairs has shelved the idea of replacing the Scorpions as a gun tank and they will not be formally replaced, where as the AML is effectively replaced by the 30mm Mowag and a few missiles and AT4s.

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                      • There is one issue we have with potentially replacing scorpion with modern tracked armoured vehicle, and GTTC touches on it.
                        Transport it one thing, having appropriate vehicles for transport is another.
                        The Scorpion was lucky in having an overall width of 7 foot (2.134m). You standard DROPS pallet or low loader has a width of 8 foot (2.44m).
                        • CV90 is 3.1m wide
                        • Ajax is 3.3m wide
                        • Puma is 3.9m wide
                        • Dardo is 3m wide
                        • ASCOD is 3.64m wide (12 feet)


                        So forgetting weight completely all the modern generation tracked AFV are wider than standard vehicles. They are not DROPS compatable, and will require specialised transporting, and given the extra width involved will be incapable of travelling on many roads locally without escort (and some hedge trimming). Carrying a 3m plus wide tracked vehicle on a 2.4m wide trailer, even with sides extended, also puts extra fatigue on the tracks (as you don't want it sliding sideways, so you have to dog it down tight). We don't currently have any vehicles capable of transporting such vehicles. The UK are also struggling in this area.
                        The other option, as is the case when transporting civilian oversided tracked vehicle, is remove the track for transport. Hardly tactical.

                        An interesting article on the issue here https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/...onsiderations/
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                        • The DF does not have enough Mowags for a NATO/EU standard sized brigade cavalary squadron, let alone pretending it has 3 x cav sqn's and a Mech Infantry Coy. Let's not be deluding ourselves with talk of IFVs

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                          • It has the establishment for 3 cav sqns. It has never had the equipment or staff. Even when there was just enough armour for 3 Sqns (on paper), soft skin vehicles were always borrowed.
                            However there is the danger that if you cut the estab to suit the equipment available, you will just end up shrinking the strength further.
                            Better off having an ambition to reach full strength, and have the structure in place, on paper at least.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • The "squadrons" would be classified as troops in any EU/NATO comparison. Nothing against having an establishment to aim for but at least make it realistic.

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                              • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                                The "squadrons" would be classified as troops in any EU/NATO comparison. Nothing against having an establishment to aim for but at least make it realistic.
                                A troop is generally a Pln/Pln minus sized force or 4 vehicles

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