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  1. #701
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I assume TS meant Leclerc’s with UNIFIL

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  3. #702
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    Well seeing that the Scorpion was the replacement for the Comets (which would be considered an early form of MBT, though it replacement was on), why not move back to something with a bit of punch! No need to worry about training or transporting them here just have the French hand them over to us in Lebanon!

    As for weight the BA is replacing their CVR(T)'s with the Ajax (Scout SV) which is currently 38tons and planned growth to 42t!

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  5. #703
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I assume TS meant Leclerc’s with UNIFIL
    They did also have some GCT-155mm in UN service, there is a infamous video of one falling off a low loader!

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  7. #704
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Well seeing that the Scorpion was the replacement for the Comets (which would be considered an early form of MBT, though it replacement was on), why not move back to something with a bit of punch! No need to worry about training or transporting them here just have the French hand them over to us in Lebanon!

    As for weight the BA is replacing their CVR(T)'s with the Ajax (Scout SV) which is currently 38tons and planned growth to 42t!
    Scorpion wasn't a replacement for Comet as the Scorpion was envisaged as a tracked recce vehicle as part of the Cavalry role at the time of its acceptance which had no relationship with Medium tanks of which the Comet was classed to be.

    No need to worry about training or transporting them here just have the French hand them over to us in Lebanon!


    So in your encyclopedic knowledge of tank warfare...how do you think we are going to train with them before they ever become deployable.

    Mowag took two years in its basic format to be deployed ........

    As for weight the BA is replacing their CVR(T)'s with the Ajax (Scout SV) which is currently 38tons and planned growth to 42t!
    And guess what the ..The BA have the infra structure and logs to move them, even the Israelis when moving tanks in Lebanon use tank transporters to do so.


    Posts like this really make me despondant......
    Just visiting

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  9. #705
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    given the restrictions on logistics and technical support, a replacement for Scorpion has got to be a MOWAG - unless you want to go ultra-Cav and use something like a Jackal.

    the big question of course, one far more important than this or that vehicle, is what do you want it to do?

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  11. #706
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Well seeing that the Scorpion was the replacement for the Comets (which would be considered an early form of MBT, though it replacement was on), why not move back to something with a bit of punch! No need to worry about training or transporting them here just have the French hand them over to us in Lebanon!

    As for weight the BA is replacing their CVR(T)'s with the Ajax (Scout SV) which is currently 38tons and planned growth to 42t!
    It’s on forces news today that the UK may lose a whole Armd Inf Bde (1 of only 2 they have left) in order to pay for the Warrior upgrade

  12. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Scorpion wasn't a replacement for Comet as the Scorpion was envisaged as a tracked recce vehicle as part of the Cavalry role at the time of its acceptance which had no relationship with Medium tanks of which the Comet was classed to be.





    So in your encyclopedic knowledge of tank warfare...how do you think we are going to train with them before they ever become deployable.

    Mowag took two years in its basic format to be deployed ........



    And guess what the ..The BA have the infra structure and logs to move them, even the Israelis when moving tanks in Lebanon use tank transporters to do so.


    Posts like this really make me despondant......
    You really don't know when you are been trolled!

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  14. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I assume TS meant Leclerc’s with UNIFIL
    Apologies, meant for UNIFIL thread

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    The French brought Leclercs to Unifil to make it clear to all potential enemies/State and non-State actors that they could and would fire back with a first-class MBT and that they also have a decent air force and navy within shouting distance........tanks are transported by wheeled transporters to save track life, engine and powertrain life and to avoid damaging roads. Tanks are perfectly capable of being used in Ireland, because our terrain is pretty much identical to the neighbours. Tanks, such as the Scorpion and Comets, were heavily restricted in Irish use because of the need and want to avoid paying for repairs to fences and roads and to avoid digging them out of soft ground, unlike the use of tanks in Europe , where tanks go where they like when they train and the various Armies fix the fences up later, so that crews learn how to use terrain to the fullest and not spend time worrying about the opinion of the IFA......I don't agree that a 30mm is sufficient as a main gun, as events in Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that even 30mm rounds were having trouble breaking into compound walls and dealing with enemies in heavily reinforced urban environments, so the Coalition troops had to fire off thousands of ATGMs as direct-fire weapons to achieve the same result as a 90 or 105mm round. I would prefer to see a combination of 30mm/90mm or even 105mm in the fleet so that an on-scene commander could use either as required.

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  17. #710
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The French brought Leclercs to Unifil to make it clear to all potential enemies/State and non-State actors that they could and would fire back with a first-class MBT and that they also have a decent air force and navy within shouting distance........tanks are transported by wheeled transporters to save track life, engine and powertrain life and to avoid damaging roads. Tanks are perfectly capable of being used in Ireland, because our terrain is pretty much identical to the neighbours. Tanks, such as the Scorpion and Comets, were heavily restricted in Irish use because of the need and want to avoid paying for repairs to fences and roads and to avoid digging them out of soft ground, unlike the use of tanks in Europe , where tanks go where they like when they train and the various Armies fix the fences up later, so that crews learn how to use terrain to the fullest and not spend time worrying about the opinion of the IFA......I don't agree that a 30mm is sufficient as a main gun, as events in Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that even 30mm rounds were having trouble breaking into compound walls and dealing with enemies in heavily reinforced urban environments, so the Coalition troops had to fire off thousands of ATGMs as direct-fire weapons to achieve the same result as a 90 or 105mm round. I would prefer to see a combination of 30mm/90mm or even 105mm in the fleet so that an on-scene commander could use either as required.
    We also don’t have any training areas anywhere near large enough to exercise proper vehicle mounted ops

    I would have agreed previously but a 30mm & Javelin combination is probably more sustainable and affordable for our purposes. The DF is too small to have multiple vehicle types so MOWAGs it is. There are very few modern vehicles in production with a stabilised 90/105mm. And even fewer with them successfully on a MOWAG chassis

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  19. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    We also don’t have any training areas anywhere near large enough to exercise proper vehicle mounted ops...
    If only there were other countries that Ireland had cordial military relationships with that did have such areas, and if only there was some way of moving people from Ireland to those places...

    I think I might look into this further, and I'll do it in two strands - the first is to invent a 'flying machine', perhaps with wings like a bird, and the second strand will be to invent a thing that can float on the sea, that you can steer, and make go to other places that are also on the sea. I think I'll call it (working title for the moment) a boat.

  20. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    If only there were other countries that Ireland had cordial military relationships with that did have such areas, and if only there was some way of moving people from Ireland to those places...

    I think I might look into this further, and I'll do it in two strands - the first is to invent a 'flying machine', perhaps with wings like a bird, and the second strand will be to invent a thing that can float on the sea, that you can steer, and make go to other places that are also on the sea. I think I'll call it (working title for the moment) a boat.
    Can’t see it catching on myself 😂

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  22. #713
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    You really don't know when you are been trolled!
    You weren't trolling any one... just being stupid......another member of 'if it looks like a tank it has to be a tank crowd.'
    Just visiting

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  24. #714
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I think GTTC has made a very valid point around the deployment of AFVs and that is the availabilty of air cover or NGS, Tanks are a very vulnerable asset that all arms need to work with.

    I do agree that the common chassis concept is a good idea and we do have enough training areas for these low intensity ops.
    Just visiting

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  26. #715
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Is there anyone using a 90/105mm on a MOWAG apart from the Belgians?

  27. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Is there anyone using a 90/105mm on a MOWAG apart from the Belgians?
    Saudi Arabia.

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  29. #717
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    The real question here is do we need a scorpion replacement? A tracked vehicle knowledge base is a nice to have, but is it something that we are likely to deploy at any point? Also, you need additional vehicles to haul them around the place. And an additional vehicle in the supply chain is just a bad idea at this point. A 90mm, similar to http://www.cmigroupe.com/cockerill-3000-series, on a MOWAG would probably make the most sense in terms or training, parts and logistics at this point in time.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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  31. #718
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    in answer Odin, no we don't need a Scorpion replacement. Not in the sense of a tracked or 76mm gun platform anyway. Tracked Ops not part of our doctrine and as evidenced by the 20 odd years of the service it provided, never going to leave the island.

    No justification whatsoever in buying something that will go the same way in the future.

    What is needed is two things:

    1. A larger calibre direct fire platform that will fit into current orbat and logs set up that can go overseas to provide a meaningful FP role (as others have said possibly
    MOWAG but i wouldn't say absolute necessity to be same brand. Remember nobody liked the 90's turning up in Leb even though car it was on was a tin can!).
    2. A serious look has to be taken at provision of indirect fire support and why it never leaves the gun park, i.e. bring 105's overseas.

    Take for instance current Golan Op, a pair of guns in camp would have range for most of AO and would never have to leave position but would be a huge advantage in terms of covering patrols, etc.

    Ops like Chad might need a bit more thought re. forward deploying guns but not impossible if the will was there!
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  33. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    in answer Odin, no we don't need a Scorpion replacement. Not in the sense of a tracked or 76mm gun platform anyway. Tracked Ops not part of our doctrine and as evidenced by the 20 odd years of the service it provided, never going to leave the island.

    No justification whatsoever in buying something that will go the same way in the future.

    What is needed is two things:

    1. A larger calibre direct fire platform that will fit into current orbat and logs set up that can go overseas to provide a meaningful FP role (as others have said possibly
    MOWAG but i wouldn't say absolute necessity to be same brand. Remember nobody liked the 90's turning up in Leb even though car it was on was a tin can!).
    2. A serious look has to be taken at provision of indirect fire support and why it never leaves the gun park, i.e. bring 105's overseas.

    Take for instance current Golan Op, a pair of guns in camp would have range for most of AO and would never have to leave position but would be a huge advantage in terms of covering patrols, etc.

    Ops like Chad might need a bit more thought re. forward deploying guns but not impossible if the will was there!
    In terms of Indirect fire, can I ask why not look at the 120mm mortar variant of the Mowag?

  34. #720
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Could a 90mm MOWAG hold a 4 man DE as well?

  35. #721
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    We’ve discussed the ORBAT of Cav Sqns previously

    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...av-ORBAT/page3

  36. #722
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Could a 90mm MOWAG hold a 4 man DE as well?
    It would appear not (at least not in the Belgian ones)

    https://youtu.be/cWwTVi1OAIY (Featured about the 2 minute mark)


    For that reason, If I was going to put them in a Bde Cav Sqn I’d put them in Supp Tp (not the Recce Tps). IMHO though you then lose some flexibility using it in some other roles.

    If you put them in 1ACS it then means it also of limited flexibility but you could have a Supp Tp of MRVs/APCs (with DE).

  37. #723
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    What about a 40mm cannon on top of a Mowag instead of a 90mm

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  39. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    If only there were other countries that Ireland had cordial military relationships with that did have such areas, and if only there was some way of moving people from Ireland to those places...

    I think I might look into this further, and I'll do it in two strands - the first is to invent a 'flying machine', perhaps with wings like a bird, and the second strand will be to invent a thing that can float on the sea, that you can steer, and make go to other places that are also on the sea. I think I'll call it (working title for the moment) a boat.
    Its not as if other countries don't do it. The most obvious example would be the UK and BATUS. A more niche one of a small country that literally doesn't have the space to do things is Singapore - The SAF have hired a former NZAF bombing range for training and conduct training exercises for their land forces in Taiwan every year.

  40. #725
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    Correct. Most of the Singaporian air force is based off the island......artillery of the 105 Light Gun class is designed to be easily transported and it is not beyond the wit of the DF to move it by air or sea to any potential deployment. As field guns go, it does fold down into quite a small package. Effectively, the only real reason not to is political......a 90mm Mowag would be so useful for so many reasons, it's a bit of a joke not to have them by now. As for role and orbat and all that, well, that's Staff Course 101 stuff. Take a leaf out of the Germans' handbook: just take them on strength and let the Brigade Comdr deploy them as he sees fit.

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