Thanks Thanks:  114
Likes Likes:  276
Dislikes Dislikes:  8
Page 1 of 27 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 651
  1. #1
    Sqdn. Ldr Silver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    448
    Post Thanks / Like

    Thumbs up Scorpions

    Is there any plan to upgrade the Scorpions ?

    I recall reading (about 2 years ago) that it would cost circa €200,000 per vehicle to do so.

    Seeing as it was considered sending the Scorpions to Liberia, is the DoD finally admitting that there is a place for tracked vehicles in the Army ?

    IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

  2. #2
    4 Star General andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    1,360
    Post Thanks / Like
    january i heard

  3. #3
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    "That would be an ecuminical matter"
    Posts
    4,554
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by kermit
    Yes
    What would the upgrade involve? Anything like the Sabre


  4. #4
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Diesel engine...fume extractor on the turret,new tracks....(That are cheaper to replace when worn).

  5. #5
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Hacienda
    Posts
    5,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Is there not an armour upgrade on the cards as well?
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  6. #6
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    2,753
    Post Thanks / Like
    Comms upgrades are the main thing afaik
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  7. #7
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Banner
    Posts
    1,716
    Post Thanks / Like
    but their not putting in any thing like the "night elbow" Night vision system or laser range finder from the AML 20/90's then?
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

    Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

  8. #8
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    2,753
    Post Thanks / Like
    Presumably they'll do the minimum, the original planned upgrade was basically a full refit with new weapons, sensors, running systems and powerpack as well as comms.
    The story I heard only mentioned comms but its safe to assume that the dieselisation is a prerequisite.

    The price tag mooted for the full upgrade was something like 7m for the fleet but there was no funding found and there were various rumours of the fleet being scrapped.
    As to why the upgrade is going ahead, look at the pics that came out of wheeled vehicles floundering on the "roads" in Liberia, time to invest in those BV 210s methinks.
    As to why upgrade w
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  9. #9
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    3,769
    Post Thanks / Like
    but their not putting in any thing like the "night elbow" Night vision system or laser range finder from the AML 20/90's then?
    I hear they were

  10. #10
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    In a semi permissable environment.
    Posts
    3,233
    Post Thanks / Like
    Scorpions now thats a rave from the grave.

  11. #11
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Wheeled Vehicles floundering? Where?

  12. #12
    C/S
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    514
    Post Thanks / Like
    I just read in "Battlespace", though only available if you Google Search, steyr cvr(t) ricardo ireland, and read the cache version, that Ireland is a customer for "Ricardos", the company that sold the DF the Ford F-350s for the ARW, Scorpion upgrade. The reason for the "" is because it appears, on reliable information, that the originators of the upgrade was actually an Irish company.

    Here's a copy/paste of a portion of the article (dated Sep. 2004):

    "Since 2003 they have converted over 400 vehicles for military applications including 250 for Special Forces including, UK, Ireland, the Dutch Marines and Italy. ........ An interesting project was that to dieselise the CVR(T)range of armoured vehicles for the Nigerian Army. "We were the original bidders against Alvis for the Steyr diesel engine to replace the jaguar in the MoD's CVR(T) fleet. After extensive trails the MoD chose the Alvis solution. We believed that our Steyr solution proved unbeatable and to that end we have been marketing this to other CVR(T) users such as Nigeria, where we have an ongoing contract to convert vehicles across the range and Ireland. We are hopeful of other customers," Tarry said."

    As you can see the report is not clear if the Scorpions will only get an engine upgrade or if tracks, weapon, armour etc. will be upgraded (apparently Nigeria also upgraded the main armament from the 76mm to a Cockerill Mk3 90mm.

    Does anyone know anything further?

    IAS

  13. #13
    Closed account hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    12,980
    Post Thanks / Like
    there are no plans to up grade the weapon and fume extractor as thsi ws the primary caise for the Brits getting rid of their scorpions. The PDF have already carried out a fume extrctor mod. All that reamnains is an engine change and a new coms fit....the problem with the slab on armour is an increase in weight whould much reduce the performnace of the vehicle.

    The emphasis on replaving the jaguar engine is the the army want to phase out petrol altogether...and have a complete diesel powered fleet....even motorbikes are heading in this direction. Given the type of operation carried out the RM with the new grade Badwagon ..maybe this is what we should be looking at to replace the Scorpion ...similar performance and agility..
    Pay them properly.....and they will come!

  14. #14
    Lieutenant
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Death Star
    Posts
    1,929
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy
    .the problem with the slab on armour is an increase in weight whould much reduce the performnace of the vehicle.
    by that do you mean ERA?

  15. #15
    C/S
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    514
    Post Thanks / Like
    I imagine HPT is talking about passive armour, I've never heard of anyone putting ERA on a Scorpion.

    Incidentally, one of the benefits of replacing the Jag engine with the Steyr is that the Steyr is considerably lighter but with a similar performance and therefore extra armour can be added without loss of performance. A Steyr powered Scorpion set a new world record as the fastest Tank (yes tank, CVR(T) being the British Army designation and they do not use the Steyr powered version).

    IAS

  16. #16
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    668
    Post Thanks / Like

    Thumbs up Scorpions

    What’s the story with replacing the Scorpions? Are they becoming obsolete? The UK have developed the “Sabre” from a Scorpion body (dieselised engine, I think) and Fox turret, would that be a runner?

  17. #17
    Intelligence Officer The Blue Max's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Finner Air Station
    Posts
    516
    Post Thanks / Like
    Well info i have to hand i was told that the Scorps are here to stay and that they are to be upgraded with a diesel engine and modern sights and sensors and that the cav were thinking about purchasing some form IRR/Thermal Imagining type reducer camouflage type sheet (theres probley a proper name for it but i forget) the possibility of changing the 76mm gun for a 90mm gun has been decided against and that 76s is viewed as good support weapon when working alongside mechanised infantry. Now all this information could have changed but it has been said to me by several sources most recently was last november on the PSO EX in The Fury Glen!!! Oh the Sabre is round year nearly as long as the Scorps I think there just scorps with 30mm cannon something we just aquired with the new Mowags the only difference with the Sabre being Tracked and CVR-T compared to the Mowag APCs.
    British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
    Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

    [As the British flag comes down]

    Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

  18. #18
    C/S sledger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    793
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'd say there looking at the Saab Barracuda Camo system, see below:


    Saab Barracuda LLC, which was acquired from BAE Systems in 2002 and which is a fully owned subsidiary of Saab Barracuda AB, produces ultra-light camouflage netting systems. ULCANS prevents detection by enemy sensors in all environments and climates. The systems provide an advanced protection against detection in the visual, near infrared, thermal infrared and the radar ranges of the electromagnetic spectrum.

    Saab Barracuda AB is located in Gamleby, Sweden, where it develops, manufactures and markets signature-matched products for multi-spectral protection against detection and identification. The company is a world-leader in its field, with subsidiaries in five countries and representatives and customers in fifty countries.

  19. #19
    Intelligence Officer The Blue Max's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Finner Air Station
    Posts
    516
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have it upstairs in an issue of Combat And Survival somewhere it discusses such equipment i'll have to dig it out... (Ponders Where My Shovel Argh...)
    British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
    Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

    [As the British flag comes down]

    Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

  20. #20
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Way off the mark there. Expect to be dissapointed.

  21. #21
    Intelligence Officer The Blue Max's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Finner Air Station
    Posts
    516
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks God not in the Cav so i only say wat I hear after it being confirmed these are just plans not confirmed options but the Cavarly were considerin it, they even published these idea in kind of commemorate hand out thing it was to do with the Anniversary Of The Cavarly Corps it was few years old but picked it up one day in the McKee. (Swiped) lol but that what they seem to belive in the Cav might happen to the Cav to the Scorps from what i heard from personnel in the curragh when i was there in the summer aswell as what i was told by Seniour NCOs from Cav Unit PDF when was on PSO EX in november..
    British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
    Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

    [As the British flag comes down]

    Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

  22. #22
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Hacienda
    Posts
    5,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Those upgrades have been talked about for a long time, there's nothing new here.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  23. #23
    ldman60119
    Guest
    How about getting a new vehicle like the Stryker or LAV-25? The Scorpions a great AFV, but it should be retired by now. It seems like a lot of money to spend to refurbish them. For 1.5 million you could get a new Bradley M2 or M3 and a used one for a lot less. I operated one in Iraq and they are one hell of a vechile. You have the 25mm Chain gun, a 7.62 and and TOWs. During the 1991 Gulf War they took out more tanks than the M1s did. A Bradley is not a tank, but neither is the Scorpion.


    I know it cost more money than an upgrade, but since the Scorpins are not being used in a combat/peackeeping mission at the moment, save the money and buy a different AFV. The cheapest thing would be to use armored humvees with TOWs or MK-19s.
    Last edited by ldman60119; 30th December 2005 at 19:52.

  24. #24
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Possibly why the Mowag Piranha with the 30mm Cannon is being selected. It is similar to the Stryker/Lav in many ways. As for the Bradley, have you seen "The Pentagon Wars"? I would have more confidence in the Warrior, if a tracked afv was being considered as a replacement, or better yet, a CV90. But thats getting into "TANKS" territory.

    As an aside, the Hughes Chain Gun was trialled on a Panhard AML many many years ago when a replacement for the 60mm Mortar turret was being considered. I don't know what the outcome of the testing was, but needless to say, the 60mm turret was not replaced until about 15 years later with the 20mm cannon.

    There is mentioned elsewhere the Competition that was held for the Light Tactical Armoured vehicle, which would have been a humvee type vehicle, with a remotely operated HMG. Though many expected the MOWAG EAGLE IV to succeed, the competition was closed with no successful bidders. All mentioned on another thread in this section.

  25. #25
    ldman60119
    Guest
    I agree about the history of the Bradley, of course that was more than 25 years ago. I have seen and experienced the Bradley take many hits from small arms/RPGs/IEDs and live to tell about it.

    Do the Scorpions deploy for peacekeeping missions? Even in places like Africa there is many nutjobs running around with RPGs.

    However you can take any AFV and make it 10x stronger. Look at what the Isrealis and South Africa have done with theirs.

    From my AFV experience, if you are to upgrade the Scorpions you have to do several things. Better armor, better engine, more blast resistant track, night vision.

    Are the Irish Scorpions 76mm or 90mm versions? If they are 76mm you are probably better of leaving it that way. Against a MBT like the M-1 its not going to make that much of a difference. And since MBT are not the main threat, having a 76mm cannon with more ammo would probably be more useful. You can take out other AFVs, trucks, bunkers. etc

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •