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  1. #901
    Private 3* Jungle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    Look at Canada, it’s a G7 economy, major NATO contributor, larger army and they found it hard to deploy a reinforced battalion group to Afghanistan and sustain it in combat. This country couldn’t by itself sustain a deployment of such a sized force.
    It is not as simple as a "reinforced Battalion". We did deploy a Battle Group, which consisted of an Infantry Battalion with all attachments:
    - Tank Sqn
    - Armoured Recce Sqn
    - Artillery Bty
    - ISTAR Bty
    - Combat Engineer Sqn

    We also had other units in theater:
    - Brigade HQ
    - Service Battalion
    - Provincial Reconstruction Team, consisting of Construction Engineers, Combat Engineers, a Recce element, a Rifle Coy, Logistics, etc
    - Operational Mentor and Liaison Team, with Infantry, Artillery, Recce, Military Police, Logistics and Command elements
    - Intelligence unit
    - Military Police Detachment (Detention Center)

    Finally, we commanded the following elements at different periods:
    - Regional Command (South): Div HQ
    - Role 3 Hospital at KAF

    If we had deployed just a Battle Group, it would have been much easier. But we ended up with well over half a Brigade deployed (some 3000 at the peak) and it became very taxing on some elements of the Army, like Logs, Combat Support and Command. Combat Arms were doing fairly well during that period, with Soldiers volunteering for multiple tours, and asking for more.
    "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

    Never give up!!"

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  3. #902
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    @ropebag, not all fast jet sorties carry PGMs and get to operate in clear blue skies like Iraq and Afghanistan. The Balkans wars are a case in point where the best airpower, flown by some of the most experienced pilots, in the world couldn't see targets because of low cloud/bad weather/deception tactics and if they went in low, they were lit up like a Christmas tree by a very layered air defence structure manned by people who'd been doing it for forty years. It forced NATO to have a look back at what they'd been doing since the start of the jet age and the Cold war; ie, going in low to attack hard targets. GW 1 forced them back upstairs after the loss of six Tornados in short order, not to mind the other Allied losses to AA/manpads/SAM....In Syria, they have been using a mix of open air dumb bombing from all altitudes and/or PGM as and when it suited the Russians to do it. Syria has so few advanced weapons left that it's mechanics are making copies of the normal FAB-250 bomb from scrap and the delivery aircraft of choice is the old MiG-21!.......in an Irish context, if the opposition in Chad or Liberia had aircraft to play with, where would that have left us? The UN are notoriously reluctant to use combat aircraft and our own government is always reluctant to ship our best hardware overseas. The RBS 70 is a very good weapon but it's no good to an overseas unit if it is sitting quietly in the Curragh. I hate the thought of an Irish unit going out to a potential war zone with one hand tied behind it's back.

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  5. #903
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    South Lebanon (and UNIFIL) suffered under the IAF for a long time.

    Didn’t the ADR deploy Bofors with ONUC?

  6. #904
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    if they did, it was only later in the deployment........anyhoo, back on topic, just buy 90mm Mowag, lads.

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  8. #905
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    Naw buy The Centauro 2 fire support vehicle instead http://www.military-today.com/artillery/centauro_2.htm

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  10. #906
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    Naw buy The Centauro 2 fire support vehicle instead http://www.military-today.com/artillery/centauro_2.htm
    30 tonnes.........might as well park one out in the Glen and throw sugar at it !
    Time for another break I think......

  11. #907
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    Well at least it could drive out there

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  13. #908
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    look at the pressure the tyres are under in that photo .... now imagine it trying to drive off piste in ireland :D :D

    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  15. #909
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    I agree, which is why I'd prefer a lighter car with a max of a 105mm gun. Compatibility with Mowags would be nice too.

  16. #910
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    Would the tyres not have lowered pressure for crossing sand. In fairness any replacement for the existing armoured fleet will be heading for the 30 ton mark if not over it. The Danish Piranha V comes in at 33tons

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  18. #911
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Compatibility with Mowags would be nice too.
    More of less essential if you ask me

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  20. #912
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    https://www.armyrecognition.com/belg...t_product.html

    This is what the Belgians (and others) have

  21. #913
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    I think it's the gun the Belgians have, not that particular hull.

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  23. #914
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I think it's the gun the Belgians have, not that particular hull.
    Yes they have that turret and gun on a MOWAG Piranha

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  25. #915
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Yes they have that turret and gun on a MOWAG Piranha
    Which gets me to wondering how much weight do these weapons systems add to the all up weight of the vehicle and how is performance effected. Do we end up with a situation like Liberia where the support vehicles couldn't keep up with the troop carrying vehicles?
    Time for another break I think......

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  27. #916
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    that all depends on how much extra tat is loaded into each vehicle; AT-4s, extra fuel, extra rounds for the 12.7/30mm/40mm and all the odds and sods that soldiers generate. It'd be easy to add a ton of extra crap to a vehicle...

  28. #917
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Which gets me to wondering how much weight do these weapons systems add to the all up weight of the vehicle and how is performance effected. Do we end up with a situation like Liberia where the support vehicles couldn't keep up with the troop carrying vehicles?
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Yes they have that turret and gun on a MOWAG Piranha
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    that all depends on how much extra tat is loaded into each vehicle; AT-4s, extra fuel, extra rounds for the 12.7/30mm/40mm and all the odds and sods that soldiers generate. It'd be easy to add a ton of extra crap to a vehicle...
    Well in this case we are talking a turret with 90mm gun, 90mm and 7.62mm ammo. It has 3 crew and no dismounts.

    I’d say the centre of gravity is greatly effected

  29. #918
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    that all depends on how much extra tat is loaded into each vehicle; AT-4s, extra fuel, extra rounds for the 12.7/30mm/40mm and all the odds and sods that soldiers generate. It'd be easy to add a ton of extra crap to a vehicle...
    The turret for the AML 90 was juts over a tonne on the AML 60 turret, to put some idea of scale on it. There were no ancilliaries such as power mounting etc.

    I'd be going with closer to a couple of tonnes if not more and increased weight due to larger ammunition and possible increased storage. Even if you lose the trp carrying capacity you now have to increase the crew by at least one...... CoG changes massively plus you have a 4ft turret standing on an already very high platform... hardly stealthy........if anything a nice big target.
    Time for another break I think......

  30. #919
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    I'd imagine the Mowag people have run the numbers on weights of each type of vehicle; 90 turret, 12.7 turret, RWS turret and so on and have done the centre of gravity calculations. It's a given at this stage that a Mowag can carry the 90 turret and do so without any fear of falling over, unless the crew are idiots and drive up unsuitable slopes. This is not the bad old days of the Unimog armoured car or the UK's Fox armoured car, both of which had bad reputations for rolling over. The designers of modern armoured vehicles are making them taller and heavier, so if someone has an issue, it's the people who buy them without challenging the designers. It makes them harder to fit aboard ships and aircraft and even lowloaders and as Murph said, it makes them into even more obvious targets. When an eight-wheeler is tipping 35 tons, it's getting out of hand. That's in the region of half the weight of the bigger MBTs, which is a joke.

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  32. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I'd imagine the Mowag people have run the numbers on weights of each type of vehicle; 90 turret, 12.7 turret, RWS turret and so on and have done the centre of gravity calculations. It's a given at this stage that a Mowag can carry the 90 turret and do so without any fear of falling over, unless the crew are idiots and drive up unsuitable slopes. This is not the bad old days of the Unimog armoured car or the UK's Fox armoured car, both of which had bad reputations for rolling over. The designers of modern armoured vehicles are making them taller and heavier, so if someone has an issue, it's the people who buy them without challenging the designers. It makes them harder to fit aboard ships and aircraft and even lowloaders and as Murph said, it makes them into even more obvious targets. When an eight-wheeler is tipping 35 tons, it's getting out of hand. That's in the region of half the weight of the bigger MBTs, which is a joke.
    While I take your point about the weight issue, the reality is the demands of the Western Public/Politicians in regards to safety of the troops means that the weight isn't going to go down, I mean look at the heavy units that the Israelis are deploying now at 60 tons.

  33. #921
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    If you are sticking a 90mm gun on a Mowag, then you're making it more of a target. At that stage looking at applique armour or similar is appropriate. Consider the implications of that added to the weight numbers.

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  35. #922
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    Sticking the 90 on a six or eight wheeler is old news now; the concept is well proven as a technological concept and combat proven; the decision to add applique armour is often up to the field commander on the day. I've just watched a French video of Op Serval (Mali) and they were using AMX 10RC, VCBIs (with 20mm), Caesar truck artillery, Tiger gunships, Pumas, Gazelles , Saviem trucks, AA52s and Famas, etc all lifted in by C160s and Hercules. Applique fitted as required. Expected opponents have RPG-7 and AK and PKM and multiple mines and IEDs. They made two 1000 km convoy marches and several other 500 km marches and booted the enemy out, with the aid of the local Malian Army and the Chadians. The 90 and 20mm were used to either smash bunkers and strong points or blow down walls to allow troops to enter buildings. The newest and best kit they had was the datalinking stuff; lesson learned; the kit doesn't have to be the newest and shiniest, it just has to work and the Army has to commit it's resources to keep it running.

  36. #923
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    Before anything D cav would want to have an idea of the type of vehicle he need to fill the roles assigned to the corps and yes the corps needs to be redefined. Commonality with a mowag platform is the way it will more than likely go. but i believe scorpion replacement should be tracked so the CV-90 would be my preferred choose
    i beleive armour troop should consisted of CV-90s, recce troop id perfer a jackel type vehical and keep your mowag and rg32 in admin troop. again its a wish list but i believe this would give a squadron an all round go anywhere troop with enough firepower to get out of trouble as quick as it can get into it.
    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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  38. #924
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    CV 90 is an IFV is intended to be deployed as support for MBTs and even if bought as a stand alone plat form has all the down falls of employing MBTs or other tracked vehicles in that it has to be carried to where is going to be deployed.

    TBH I think the only option is more MRV 's in order to keep commonality and reduce running costs.
    Time for another break I think......

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  40. #925
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    Agreed; all it would give is practise in hauling tracked vehicles around and the grief attached to changing tracks and crews would not get real time practise in driving and crewing. With Mowags, you just get in and go; I see them very often where I live and their ability to move quickly and get around in confined areas, such as tight backroads, is excellent......I suspect that someone upstairs has shelved the idea of replacing the Scorpions as a gun tank and they will not be formally replaced, where as the AML is effectively replaced by the 30mm Mowag and a few missiles and AT4s.

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