Originally posted by ropebag
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Ok assuming the DF wants a fire support vehicle (let’s take MBTs out of the mix for now) for the Cav to replace the Scorpion (and arguably AML90). In the 30+ pages there has been few suggestions:
CV90 with 105/120 (or Polish PL-01)
Scout UV / Ajax
Wiesel
Centauro 2
Lynx
Jaguar EBRC
Japanese MCV
Textron M1117
MOWAG Piranha with 90/105mm
Jackal (not a FSV)
Scorpion Upgrade (out as they are being sold)
I suppose I’m asking is there another vehicle.
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Originally posted by DeV View PostOk assuming the DF wants a fire support vehicle (let’s take MBTs out of the mix for now) for the Cav to replace the Scorpion (and arguably AML90). In the 30+ pages there has been few suggestions:
CV90 with 105/120 (or Polish PL-01)
Scout UV / Ajax
Wiesel
Centauro 2
Lynx
Jaguar EBRC
Japanese MCV
Textron M1117
MOWAG Piranha with 90/105mm
Jackal (not a FSV)
Scorpion Upgrade (out as they are being sold)
I suppose I’m asking is there another vehicle.
CAT 1: Dedicated FSV's
Centauro 2, Jaguar EBRC, Japanese MCV and to complete the list the Stryker MGS
CAT 2: Modified Tracked IFV's
CV90, Scout Sv/Ajax/ASCOD 2, K21 with either a 105mm or 120mm gun
CAT 3: Modified 8x8's
Piranha III or V, AMV, Terrex, CM32, Boxer fitted with a 90mm or 105mm gun (could be any but the new generation such as the Piranha V, AMV and Boxer offer a more flexible platform to cover more roles)
CAT 4: Modified 4x4's
Textron M1117 or another member of the Commando range with a 90mm gun
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostWe have a number of categories:
CAT 1: Dedicated FSV's
Centauro 2, Jaguar EBRC, Japanese MCV and to complete the list the Stryker MGS
CAT 2: Modified Tracked IFV's
CV90, Scout Sv/Ajax/ASCOD 2, K21 with either a 105mm or 120mm gun
CAT 3: Modified 8x8's
Piranha III or V, AMV, Terrex, CM32, Boxer fitted with a 90mm or 105mm gun (could be any but the new generation such as the Piranha V, AMV and Boxer offer a more flexible platform to cover more roles)
CAT 4: Modified 4x4's
Textron M1117 or another member of the Commando range with a 90mm gun
Well if it was CAT3 common sense says it has to be a MOWAG Piranha IIIH (or at least a Piranha with as much commonality as possible with the IIIH)
or the Irish MOWAGs replacement
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Originally posted by DeV View PostWell if it was CAT3 common sense says it has to be a MOWAG Piranha IIIH (or at least a Piranha with as much commonality as possible with the IIIH)
or the Irish MOWAGs replacement
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostSeeing that MOWAG no longer makes the IIIH, it would mean conversion of an APC or as you suggest a MOWAG replacement
I assume the H is the Irish version
To get the APC fleet back up to strength, fully equip the 2 x BCS and 1 ACS you could be looking at 30+ MOWAGs
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Originally posted by DeV View PostRomania ordered Piranha III in December 2016
I assume the H is the Irish version
To get the APC fleet back up to strength, fully equip the 2 x BCS and 1 ACS you could be looking at 30+ MOWAGs
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So for simplest resolutions to logistics, fleet commonality and actual firepower provision you are realistically looking at:
Piranha 111 DF90 ala Belguim
Pundur 8x8 with 90 or perhaps 105 turret
Obviously either will not provide 100% commonality, etc. but at least same manufacturer and supply chain is maintained, not to mention familiarity with type, etc.An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
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Originally posted by X-RayOne View PostSo for simplest resolutions to logistics, fleet commonality and actual firepower provision you are realistically looking at:
Piranha 111 DF90 ala Belguim
Pundur 8x8 with 90 or perhaps 105 turret
Obviously either will not provide 100% commonality, etc. but at least same manufacturer and supply chain is maintained, not to mention familiarity with type, etc.
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostPiranha and Pandur are totally different even if today they have the same parent company. The Piranha is from the Swiss MOWAG company while the Pandur is from the Austrian Steyr-Daimler-Puch.
I always find the obsession with the 90mm hilarious, it comes from the aml90 in the Lebanon but ignores the fact that the 90 mm round from a low pressure gun was totally obsolete concert even in the 1980s. if they had ever fired against a merkava they might have scratched the paint if they were lucky, but that's about it.
People also think about the aml/ratel in South African service which also ignores that they were up against Angolan army tank crews who were badly trained and thus were able to use near sucidal tactics that had they been employed against half way competent opponents would have seen the South African severely defeated. The half track at an tiri Is an indication of The 90mm performance, a ww2 vehicle defeated by a ww2 era piece of ammunition.
That's why they were experimenting in the late 1980s with a new turret on the aml with a 25-30mm weapon, because they wanted something in the Lebanon that wasn't obsolete.
30mm especially the version that the MRV uses us do much more effective, Better performance against modern armor and there are different types of fuses.Last edited by paul g; 23 November 2017, 22:40.
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostI stand corrected, the press release just said III's, it didn't mention the exact version but even if they already have IIIC's the differences are minor. There is the III+ which was launched last year and ordered by the Swiss as a mortar carrier.
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Originally posted by paul g View Posti always find the obsession with the 90mm hilarious, it comes from the aml90 in the Lebanon but ignores the fact that the 90 mm round from a low pressure gun was totally obsolete concert even in the 1980s. if they had ever fired against a merkava they might have scratched the paint if they were lucky, but that's about it.
People also think about the aml/ratel in South African service which also ignores that they were up against Angolan army tank crews who were badly trained and thus were able to use near sucidal tactics that had they been employed against half way competent opponents would have seen the South African severely defeated. The half track at an tiri Is an indication of The 90mm performance, a ww2 vehicle defeated by a ww2 era piece of ammunition.
That's why they were experimenting in the late 1980s with a new turret on the aml with a 25-30mm weapon, because they wanted something in the Lebanon that wasn't obsolete.
A heavier target means a Javelin.
The idea is more of support fire taking on light armour, fortifications, etc
30mm especially the version that the MRV uses us do much more effective, Better performance against modern armor and there are different types of fuses.
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The South Africans were compelled to use the 90mm against T55s and other Russian made armour as their heavy Olifants with 105s could not move through the bush country as well as the wheeled armour. Several times, the 90mm gun had to fire multiple shots to get destructive kills against T55s, especially against the turrets. An advantage of the short 90mm was it's ability to be traversed in heavy woodland, whereas the 100mm of the T55 could not and some kills happened because of this. The South Africans were very aware of the limitations of the gun, which is why they made more effort to get the Olifants forward, but this led to more mine casualties and it made recovery harder. As for more modern warfare, Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other more recent wars, have shown the utility of a direct fire gun, to supplement the missile and the mortar. Ireland isn't going to buy MBTs or tracks of any kind so a good wheeled AFV is all that's left, so a good 90mm, to supplement the 30mm and the GMG and the mortar, will have to do. It would be nice to have a wheeled 105, but I suspect that that is one leap too far for the DF.
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Not all 90mm are the same just as the 76mm from the Scorpion was not the same round as that used by the Naval Service. The AML90's was a low pressure round, still capable of providing direct fire with HE and HEAT rounds, against fortified positions, lightly armoured vehicles and technical it does the job. The South Africans mounted it on the Ratel IFV's to provide organic fire support to their Ratel units. The CMI MK8 90mm guns is a modern weapon with much more capability and can do damage to some MBT's if it gets close enough. And that can be factor as seen during the 1991 in Iraq where the Soviet made 125mm equipped tanks were outgunned by the 120mm NATO.
The CMI Mk8 is a good gun especially if weight is an issue, and as already mentioned here CMI have a modular turret system the CMI3000 series which can mount a 30mm, a 35mm, a 90mm or a 105mm gun. An option could be to start with it fitted with a 90mm and then move to a 105mm is needed. But as always the operation need should be driving a selection along with how it fits available platforms to carry it. 90mm Mk8 are on the Belgium IIIC's so tick in the box, the 105mm NATO in on the Stryker MGS (cousin of III) so again possible on our IIIH's. But the latter is pushing it a bit to the limit for a 20t vehicle, better would have been a 25t platform. And if a 120mm NATO was to be fitted then I would prefer a 30t platform.
There are a number of things the 120mm has going for it apart from packing more punch and that is you do not have loads of empty brass casings to get rid of out of the turret as most of the casing is combustible leaving only a small base to eject.Last edited by EUFighter; 24 November 2017, 05:51.
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The Belgians are due to replace the Piranhas from 2025, with the French VBMR Griffon in the taxi role and the EBRC Jaguar for support. The Jaguar carries a 40mm cannon and also has guided missiles for the heavier targets. Both will be 25 tonne vehicles.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/june..._22306174.html
The French design their armoured forces around expeditionary operations in Africa where maintaining tracked vehicles is difficult and they seem to prefer fast, light and wheeled (I know they also bring the Leclercs). It seems to me that both their concept of ops and experience have a lot that should be of interest to Ireland.
There is also the possibility that the Belgian 90mm turret decision was pure pork barrel.
The only producer of the ammunition is in the constituency of the Belgian Defence Minister at the time of the contract.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...s-ensue-01872/Last edited by expat01; 24 November 2017, 06:49.
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