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  1. #801
    gunner at heart Archimedes's Avatar
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    Considering what Ireland spends on defence, perhaps this is more appropriate to our budget
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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  3. #802
    Major General
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    Shh. Why do you think the LTAVs keep falling apart?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  5. #803
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    Re: #790 - The South African Rooikat - very much like the Italian Centauro i.e. 8-wheels and mid-20s tons, but with a high velocity 76mm (adapted version of the same 76mm used by the Naval Service - not the same as the Scorpion's gun/ammo), and capable of mounting a full 105mm.

    Its not in production but, would there be properly mothballed, little used and later-built examples in storage in SA that could be bought and modernised for a knock-down price?
    (i'm guessing probably not!).

  6. #804
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    The problem with wheeled vehicles with a large calibre weapon is that they have problems in cities negotiating obstacles where it is likely that wars will be fought in the future, the Americans in Somalia and later Iraq and the Italian centaurs in Iraq all had problems with wheeled vehicles not being able to go through barricades and the like. Hence why the Americans are looking at a tracked vehicle for their mobile protected firepower project.

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  8. #805
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    If we were in the market for something small and recce like, why not the German Wiesel?
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  9. #806
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    Also I know sweet fa about tank things other than tracks and gun, so go easy
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  10. #807
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Too small, too lightly armed, not well enough armoured

  11. #808
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    If we were in the market for something small and recce like, why not the German Wiesel?
    The Wiesel is designed to be transported by the CH53 to be a support vehicle to the German Airborne troops. They were planned in the late '70s when the idea was to quickly plug gaps in the frontline against the Warsaw Pact. As such they are light, will withstand 7.62 rds or Shell fragments but not much more. They have also almost zero Mine protection and this is essential in todays operational deployments. Due to their size their capacity is limited, 3 troopers is tops.

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  13. #809
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    The armour protection I get, obviously a necessity today.

    But you can chuck rocket launchers and cannons on them, and they're light enough to not be too troubled by Irish terrain I'd wager. What does a 139 lift? 9 tonnes or have I lost a screw? The Wiesel weighs up to 5 according to Wikipedia - handy to transport.

    Let's be realistic, what does the DF need in terms of tank capability?
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  14. #810
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    The armour protection I get, obviously a necessity today.

    But you can chuck rocket launchers and cannons on them, and they're light enough to not be too troubled by Irish terrain I'd wager. What does a 139 lift? 9 tonnes or have I lost a screw? The Wiesel weighs up to 5 according to Wikipedia - handy to transport.

    Let's be realistic, what does the DF need in terms of tank capability?
    The AW139 has a maximum lift of 2200kg, a NH90/UH60 is around 4000kg, you have to go up to a CH53 or CH47 to get a helicopter transporting a Wiesel any serious distance. Also remember that the Wiesel was built in the 80's and even the Wiesel 2 was 2000's. So neither are any longer in production. There narrow tracks make them mobile in central Europe but not the best for really soft ground.
    It you want to look at a more capable tracked vehicle then go for the BvS10. Big brother of the BV206 already used to carry radars. It was used by the Dutch Marines in Chad and the aft unit is flexible and can be fitted with any thing you want. The wide rubber tracks given it great mobility on soft ground.

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  16. #811
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    Cheers for the info!
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  17. #812
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The AW139 has a maximum lift of 2200kg, a NH90/UH60 is around 4000kg, you have to go up to a CH53 or CH47 to get a helicopter transporting a Wiesel any serious distance. Also remember that the Wiesel was built in the 80's and even the Wiesel 2 was 2000's. So neither are any longer in production. There narrow tracks make them mobile in central Europe but not the best for really soft ground.
    It you want to look at a more capable tracked vehicle then go for the BvS10. Big brother of the BV206 already used to carry radars. It was used by the Dutch Marines in Chad and the aft unit is flexible and can be fitted with any thing you want. The wide rubber tracks given it great mobility on soft ground.

    And the BVs are APCs, equipment carriers etc

  18. #813
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    I was in Spike Island at the weekend, Cav drove a scorpion into the Gun park there last week if anyone wants to pop over, they've a good collection going now.

    Fk sake can we not just buy some more MRVs/CRVs they work and have fking tremendous value for what they are
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  20. #814
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    We should invest in some British Army Ajax tanks

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  22. #815
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    I still say EBRC Jaguar

    The French have not a dissimilar mission profile to The Army AFAIK and have a lot of experience

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/fren..._pictures.html

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  24. #816
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    I still say EBRC Jaguar

    The French have not a dissimilar mission profile to The Army AFAIK and have a lot of experience

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/fren..._pictures.html
    It’s a large vehicle for what it is, it would add another calibre of ammo and another missile type for a very small amount of vehicles

    It also isn’t in service yet so there is a major risk.

    Having said that, it would be along the lines of what we need (your right about the mission profile), none of the issues above are showstoppers but they are considerations.

    Thing is the AML90/AML60/M3 combination made a lot of sense do to commonalities

  25. #817
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    I still say EBRC Jaguar

    The French have not a dissimilar mission profile to The Army AFAIK and have a lot of experience

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/fren..._pictures.html
    I would touch it with a barge pole.

    It is not developed, its missile is not yet in service, its gun is causing the Brits problems and the cost per unit vehicle will be many time what they had expected. It was to be 1m per unit, but the contract with Belgium is much higher and a production rate of only 22 units per year will not drive the cost down. It only seems to make sense as they will replace a wide range of vehicles with one and will have the Griffon APC with mechanical commonality.

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  27. #818
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    Axle configuration useless on soft ground, they have room for a fourth axle which it looks like it needs.

  28. #819
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Looks like it was designed by lego
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  30. #820
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    The problem with wheeled vehicles with a large calibre weapon is that they have problems in cities negotiating obstacles where it is likely that wars will be fought in the future, the Americans in Somalia and later Iraq and the Italian centaurs in Iraq all had problems with wheeled vehicles not being able to go through barricades and the like. Hence why the Americans are looking at a tracked vehicle for their mobile protected firepower project.
    And tank doctrine developed during and after WW2 said exactly the opposite where tanks should stay out of built up areas because of the limited manouvering space offered and the potential for track loss or damage to debris, the vulnerabilty to hidden anti tank weapons from the tops of high buildings. The tanks gun is of limited use often because of the proximity of own forces.

    Better option in this case being for a smaller Combat engineer tracked vehicle with a breech fed mortar.
    Time for another break I think......

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  32. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    And tank doctrine developed during and after WW2 said exactly the opposite where tanks should stay out of built up areas because of the limited manouvering space offered and the potential for track loss or damage to debris, the vulnerabilty to hidden anti tank weapons from the tops of high buildings. The tanks gun is of limited use often because of the proximity of own forces.

    Better option in this case being for a smaller Combat engineer tracked vehicle with a breech fed mortar.
    The only problem being though that war is becoming an urban rather than rural phenomena as the world Becomes far more urbanised than it was in 1945. Panama, Somalia, Chechnya, Iraq (2003), the Gaza Strip all saw armour used in urban environments and have more influence on current American thinking than the post war period. The mobile protected firepower is intended to develop a vehicle to support light infantry in a variety of environment, and tracked vehicle is seen as a important for urban operations.

  33. #822
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Not sure this whole thing about contemporary combat being very urban is coming from? People who have only studied history pre 1939 possibly.

    There are more urban areas than there used to yes but to FIBUA is fair from a exclusive contemporary phenomena

    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    The only problem being though that war is becoming an urban rather than rural phenomena as the world Becomes far more urbanised than it was in 1945. Panama, Somalia, Chechnya, Iraq (2003), the Gaza Strip all saw armour used in urban environments and have more influence on current American thinking than the post war period. The mobile protected firepower is intended to develop a vehicle to support light infantry in a variety of environment, and tracked vehicle is seen as a important for urban operations.
    If your war fighting possibly. If your trying to win hearts and minds, peace enforcement etc most definitely not

  34. #823
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    The only problem being though that war is becoming an urban rather than rural phenomena as the world Becomes far more urbanised than it was in 1945. Panama, Somalia, Chechnya, Iraq (2003), the Gaza Strip all saw armour used in urban environments and have more influence on current American thinking than the post war period. The mobile protected firepower is intended to develop a vehicle to support light infantry in a variety of environment, and tracked vehicle is seen as a important for urban operations.
    I agree that the concept of two armies squaring up to each other over open ground is probably a lost concept since Gulf war one with combat now being fought in small pockets between forces not evenly matched, but given the fact its been 2003/4 since the americans deployed armor en masses and tried to use M1A1s in towns in Iraq, the worm has probably turned that bit more and we are back to the point where FIBUA is going to be the decider in any future war, vehicles need to be developed around the needs of the infantry.. oh shit wait a minute.. isn't that how we ended up with tanks in the first place from 102 years ago!
    Time for another break I think......

  35. #824
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    A British tank unit in Iraq found that positioning a Challenger at the end of a street usually tended to get a great deal of respect from the locals and it tended to dissuade the local hard men from having a pop, because the ordinary citizen knew that a 120mm main gun would make a nice mess of a street. If you look at Syria, the Army tended to send out T-72s and various BMPs in uncoordinated sorties, with little or no air support or artillery overwatch, that were almost guaranteed to get them killed. It seems that only Russian airpower, being used indiscriminately, has actively reduced the tank loss rate.

  36. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    The only problem being though that war is becoming an urban rather than rural phenomena as the world Becomes far more urbanised than it was in 1945. Panama, Somalia, Chechnya, Iraq (2003), the Gaza Strip all saw armour used in urban environments and have more influence on current American thinking than the post war period. The mobile protected firepower is intended to develop a vehicle to support light infantry in a variety of environment, and tracked vehicle is seen as a important for urban operations.
    For anyone interested

    http://www.armyupress.army.mil/Onlin...ns/#5?platform

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