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  1. #551
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    yes....derivate of a wartime gun.....why didn't we get Saladins?

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  3. #552
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    Because panhards had two less tyres to replace.

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  5. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    yes....derivate of a wartime gun.....why didn't we get Saladins?
    Because AML was a much better vehicle, after all it was the first non british piece of kit bought after the war.

    When the army selected it a key consideration was the Congo experience and they wanted a vehicle that could engage other armoured cars. Originally they wanted the 90mm version, but they were forced by the department to go with the 60, allegedly to save on having to buy a new type of ammunition.

  6. #554
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    Would the 76mm be a different type than the NS 76mm Oto Melara ammo?
    The similarity ends with the calibre.
    Just visiting

  7. #555
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    When the army selected it a key consideration was the Congo experience and they wanted a vehicle that could engage other armoured cars. Originally they wanted the 90mm version, but they were forced by the department to go with the 60, allegedly to save on having to buy a new type of ammunition.
    obviously some things never change since the dawn of time
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

  8. #556
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    Would the 76mm be a different type than the NS 76mm Oto Melara ammo?
    Ahhh, now this post makes sense on the Ships thread...

    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post437087

    I thought it was a bit random...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  9. #557
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    With the passing of the AMLs, P20s, Bofors AA "systems" and the trailed 84s and 25 pounders the big bore ammo variety in the DF has reduced considerably to about 6 types in the last few years.

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  11. #558
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    L.E. Aisling is the only DF asset still using the Bofors L70, I believe. With the Demise of the Air Defence Regiment, the others have returned to stores, with the PDF artillery regiments using the BV/Giraffe and RBS70 with the Browning HMG as low level back up.
    Commonality is a good thing.
    We never had trailed 84s.

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  13. #559
    Private 3* Jungle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Wasn't there a Canadian company offering rubber tracks as a refit and at least one operator had taken them into service?
    The original rubber tracks we had on the TLAV in Kandahar in 2010-2011 were produced by a company called Soucy:

    soucytrack

    I don't know what became of the contract, maybe it was picked up by another company.
    In short, the rubber tracks performed very well, and the terrain in Kandahar is merciless.
    "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

    Never give up!!"

  14. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    L.E. Aisling is the only DF .......
    We never had trailed 84s.
    My mistake I was referring to the 90s .

  15. #561
    Private 3* Jungle's Avatar
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    Here's some recent footage of rubber track testing in the north:

    TLAV in Labrador
    "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

    Never give up!!"

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  17. #562
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  19. #563
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    Non-NATO or Western standard guns and missiles, not a whisper of a chance?

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  21. #564
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    The FV101's are over 30yrs old and rapidly aproaching the 40 year mark. It must be questioned how much longer they will serve, last info I had was that only 6 were operational.
    BAe did have an upgrade program available including new rubber tracks but I am not sure if it is still available as the major opetators (UK and Belgium) have retired most of their fleets.

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  23. #565
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    Do they have a role apart from training in the current establishment? Everything about the car is history. The last war the type (Scorpion with 76mm gun) fought in is one fought by men who are all now approaching pension age, if not already in receipt of it.
    No rangefinder, no stabiliser, very cramped (by modern standards) and worst of all, never deployed overseas by us. Having 6 operational is not that bad though, given the small numbers available, and the unit being one of the busier when using other vehicle types.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  24. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The FV101's are over 30yrs old and rapidly aproaching the 40 year mark. It must be questioned how much longer they will serve, last info I had was that only 6 were operational.
    BAe did have an upgrade program available including new rubber tracks but I am not sure if it is still available as the major opetators (UK and Belgium) have retired most of their fleets.
    Tbh I just don't see the point of keeping them for another day - they have no operational role or utility, they have no doctrinal or training role, and they suck money and people out of things you can use.

    Get rid and buy spares for the MOWAG's instead.

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  26. #567
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    why did the Brits upgrade their Scimitars, then? Would it be worth it to convert the existing Scorpions to a 30mm cannon standard?

  27. #568
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    The Brits had hundreds of examples and were deploying them overseas; it made sense for them to upgrade & extend their usefulness.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  28. #569
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    AFAIK the Scimitar's Rarden cannon is loaded in 3 round clips.

    The Scimitar 2s (with Spartan hulls) have all been sold on I think

  29. #570
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    They were able to upgrade them because they had so many. Wiki says 1500 FV101, 325 FV107, not to mention the 200 FV721 who donated their turrets. The L21 gun was ahead of its time when it came to recce vehicle armament. Medium calibre packing an armour piercing punch, with rapid fire. The same gun was used on the Warrior and Fox, the latter whose turrets ended up on old Scorp hulls(Becoming Sabre). Remember the Scorpion gun dates from the 1950s, and was first seen on the Saladin, scout car version of the Saracen so popular in NI during the troubles.
    When the Irish officer who became a crusty was mounting HMGs to the roof of scorpions, they should have been converting the engines to Diesel, and replacing the Scorp turret with the Scimitar. Indeed the original order was far too small, and twice the amount, with a mix of turret, would have served the country better, perhaps even serving overseas. Why they decided that only certain cars would carry the Gen 1 Night vision is also a mystery. Did they not intend to use them at night?
    The priority when conversion should have happened here though was to fit a modern turret to the AFV that was actually being sent overseas, the Panhard AML60. Many trials happened during this time, including the Hughes Chain gun and the FV721 Turret, but nothing came of it, with a compromise found by mounting a 0.5 HMG inside the turret (instead of on the roof). It was unsuitable, but an improvement on a hole where a mortar once was. Eventually in the late 90s, all AML60s were refitted with a 20mm cannon, which had a higher rate of fire, but lighter punch than the L21. Less than ten years later we see Irish Mowag AFVs fitted with the same Chain gun evaluated for the Panhard in the mid 80s.

    They have no function in the order of battle. They are a tracked recce vehicle that only operate in a country where tracked recce vehicles are unsuitable. Use em or lose em.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  30. #571
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    why do you think a tracked recce vehicle is unsuitable for use in Ireland, when it has a lower footprint weight than most wheeled vehicles? People have this illusion that Ireland is unsuitable for tracked vehicles. The reality is that only parts of it are unusable for heavy tracked vehicles and most of it is passable for a Scorpion. What's likely to do for the Scorpion in Irish service is death by neglect, as funds are spent on the wheeled AFV fleet.

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  32. #572
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    The Scorpion's were a lip service to tracked vehicles/"tanks". Did we ever actually have enough, no. I honestly believe we should have gone for the FV107 Scimitar as a recce vehicle for all but a support troop with some Spartans and Scorpions. But anyway, doctrine for Cav/Armour seems to be up for review going by a previous post here, so the future should be interesting to say the least.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  33. #573
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    A lot of the country wouldn't be ideal tank country (eg steep valleys, deep/wide rivers, small bridges, canalised roads, mountains etc. Tank country would probably be the Midlands.

    On the other hand light tracked AFVs (such as the Scorpion family) would be probably able to traverse much of the country

  34. #574
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    The Scorpion's were a lip service to tracked vehicles/"tanks". Did we ever actually have enough, no. I honestly believe we should have gone for the FV107 Scimitar as a recce vehicle for all but a support troop with some Spartans and Scorpions. But anyway, doctrine for Cav/Armour seems to be up for review going by a previous post here, so the future should be interesting to say the least.
    Actually 1 ACS has the full establishment of Scorpions that would be required for a Squadron (but not the necessary APCs)

  35. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    A lot of the country wouldn't be ideal tank country (eg steep valleys, deep/wide rivers, small bridges, canalised roads, mountains etc. Tank country would probably be the Midlands.

    On the other hand light tracked AFVs (such as the Scorpion family) would be probably able to traverse much of the country
    Midlands is bog whih would probably be unsuitable for nearly everything except Scorpions and the BVs

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