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  1. #576
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    Midlands is bog whih would probably be unsuitable for nearly everything except Scorpions and the BVs
    Forgot about them

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  3. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    They were able to upgrade them because they had so many. Wiki says 1500 FV101, 325 FV107, not to mention the 200 FV721 who donated their turrets. The L21 gun was ahead of its time when it came to recce vehicle armament. Medium calibre packing an armour piercing punch, with rapid fire. The same gun was used on the Warrior and Fox, the latter whose turrets ended up on old Scorp hulls(Becoming Sabre). Remember the Scorpion gun dates from the 1950s, and was first seen on the Saladin, scout car version of the Saracen so popular in NI during the troubles.
    When the Irish officer who became a crusty was mounting HMGs to the roof of scorpions, they should have been converting the engines to Diesel, and replacing the Scorp turret with the Scimitar. Indeed the original order was far too small, and twice the amount, with a mix of turret, would have served the country better, perhaps even serving overseas. Why they decided that only certain cars would carry the Gen 1 Night vision is also a mystery. Did they not intend to use them at night?
    The priority when conversion should have happened here though was to fit a modern turret to the AFV that was actually being sent overseas, the Panhard AML60. Many trials happened during this time, including the Hughes Chain gun and the FV721 Turret, but nothing came of it, with a compromise found by mounting a 0.5 HMG inside the turret (instead of on the roof). It was unsuitable, but an improvement on a hole where a mortar once was. Eventually in the late 90s, all AML60s were refitted with a 20mm cannon, which had a higher rate of fire, but lighter punch than the L21. Less than ten years later we see Irish Mowag AFVs fitted with the same Chain gun evaluated for the Panhard in the mid 80s.

    They have no function in the order of battle. They are a tracked recce vehicle that only operate in a country where tracked recce vehicles are unsuitable. Use em or lose em.
    Believe it or not but the DoD paid extra when buying the Scorps to have the NBC kit (which was standard) removed.
    As it was to scary or sumtin.

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  5. #578
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    I take it the cage like object shrouding the main armament on this Scorpion is for camouflaging (outline breaking) purposes?
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  6. #579
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    Tanks and other tracked AFVs and vehicles have been successfully operated in rougher country than Ireland. It doesn't need to be billiard-table flat or desert-dry. You're not asking the tank operators to drive to the top of Lug or Carrauntoohil or scuttle across soaking wet swamp. A Scorpion or equivalent light AFV will go where any tractor will go. You ask the ESB or Coillte where they take their Landys, Unimogs and lots of other heavy 4x4s. Ironically, British Scorpions were able to traverse the peatlands of the Falklands as Argentinian AML 90s were confined to graded tracks or main roads.

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  8. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Tanks and other tracked AFVs and vehicles have been successfully operated in rougher country than Ireland. It doesn't need to be billiard-table flat or desert-dry. You're not asking the tank operators to drive to the top of Lug or Carrauntoohil or scuttle across soaking wet swamp. A Scorpion or equivalent light AFV will go where any tractor will go. You ask the ESB or Coillte where they take their Landys, Unimogs and lots of other heavy 4x4s. Ironically, British Scorpions were able to traverse the peatlands of the Falklands as Argentinian AML 90s were confined to graded tracks or main roads.
    the objection to the Scorpians isn't based on their mobility, which as you said is proven in rougher, boggier places than Ireland, its based on two fundamental problems: firstly that their vunerabilty to IED strikes makes them politically unusable in an Irish context, and secondly that the number of them in service is too small to have a deployable, usable asset.

    they could be made useful - new gun and ammunition, new ISTAR systems, additional armour etc.. but they would still be horribly vunerable to an IED strike because of the nature of their design - and therefore they'd probably go undeployed - the upgrade would cost a fortune in Irish defence budget terms, and you'd still only have 6 of them.

    i like the Scorpian concept - and having been a member of a force that got tied to roads in a viscious armour vs IED circle, i'm fully aware that the best defence against an IED is to not drive over it and that mobility is the key to that - but i'm afraid i take the view that they are part of a doctrinal ship that has already sailed.

  9. #581
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Any upgrade would have to include making the whole fleet serviceable.

  10. #582
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    To fully equip the Bde Cav Sqn your talking approx 18 armoured vehicles (2 Sqns total of 36).

    They could be a combination of LTAVs, CRVs and MRVs. Personally I'd go for just CRVs and MRVs (to ensure more firepower is available).

    So what then for 1 ACS?
    Either upgrade the Scorpion to get another 10-15 years out of them (of questionable VFM IMHO).

    Replace with a new vehicle with heavier firepower than MRV (the 40/30mm combo are versatile though). If it to be done use MOWAG hull (better VFM).

    No sense IMHO having 1ACS with the same equipment as a Bde Cav Sqn (they are the strategic reserve).

    So the only other option is close down 1ACS (but they with 1Mech are the strategic reserve)

  11. #583
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    if they have no real utility, then bite the bullet, stick a couple in Museums and stick the rest on the range or flog them to collectors and go full Mowag thereafter.

  12. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    i like the Scorpian concept - and having been a member of a force that got tied to roads in a viscious armour vs IED circle, i'm fully aware that the best defence against an IED is to not drive over it and that mobility is the key to that - but i'm afraid i take the view that they are part of a doctrinal ship that has already sailed.
    So basically tracks over wheels?

  13. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    So basically tracks over wheels?
    Jackal 2 ?

  14. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Jackal 2 ?
    That sailed straight over my head ...

  15. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    That sailed straight over my head ...
    Sorry, it was more a suggestion to Ropebags experience of IEDs planted along roads. Jackel if used as intended would stay off the beaten track.

  16. #588
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    Potential replacement for Scorpions

    Hi Folks

    Ive mentioned this a few times in the past. I still firmly believe that the Irish state needs something in its locker that packs more punch than a 30MM and in my very humble opinion something like the Centauro fits the bill quite nicely.

    (see below link they have just launched the 8 wheeled Centauro 2 armed with a stabilised 120 MM gun – 12 minute video including opnions – author is ex British Army Tanker)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XHnMMC22tc

    Now before I get told “its not reece” and therefore has no business in our inventory please bear in mind the following.

    It actually is a Multi role Vehicle capable of reece, force protection, long range patrolling, direct fire support, light anti tank etc.

    And secondly even if the “its not reece” statement was true (which it isn’t) then so what? As I say in my opening sentence, the Irish state needs something more in its inventory than 6 MRV’s armed with 30MM. personally I believe that each brigade should have a squadron each of something like this.

    The scorpions are all but useless at this stage, would something like this not represent a massive leap forward?

    Finally yes I know there is a version of the Mowag in use with the Belgians with I think a 90MM mounted in a turret fulfilling an identical role but its nearly as high as a skyscraper and to my utterly uneducated eye looks more than a tad unstable. Id love to see a tender opened and trials between these vehicles to determine which is the most effective.

  17. #589
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    The Cav Sqns need more MRVs and CRVs.

    1 ACS IMHO does need a heavier deployable cost effective vehicle

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  19. #590
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    A Fire Support Vehicle is planned, it always was on the shopping list as an AML 90 replacement along with many more Mowags but that never happened. The Scorpions are pending retirement and I believe a wheeled medium armoured FSV is favoured as a replacement, although this is still going to be several years away as a decision was made two years ago to upgrade the Mowag fleet which is only starting to happen now and it will be at least another five years before the first Mowag replacement vehicles are entering service which may have a FSV variant in the first batch.

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  21. #591
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    Can someone refresh my memory? I know our MOWAG variants have 30mm as well as the 40mm grenade launcher. Are there any ATGM weapons on our vehicles? TOW, Milan etc? Surely thats a good way to up the firepower and still keep them as recce vehicles
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

  22. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by HavocIRL View Post
    Can someone refresh my memory? I know our MOWAG variants have 30mm as well as the 40mm grenade launcher. Are there any ATGM weapons on our vehicles? TOW, Milan etc? Surely thats a good way to up the firepower and still keep them as recce vehicles
    The only ATGM in service is the Javelin which is an infantry shoulder fired weapon. Any ATGM armed vehicle should be in addition to the fleet and not as a FSV substitute. Kongsberg have built a Javelin capable dual weapon RWS which would be ideal.

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  24. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by HavocIRL View Post
    Can someone refresh my memory? I know our MOWAG variants have 30mm as well as the 40mm grenade launcher. Are there any ATGM weapons on our vehicles? TOW, Milan etc? Surely thats a good way to up the firepower and still keep them as recce vehicles
    We never had TOW and the MILAN's have been replaced with FGM-148 Javelin. These are not vehicle mounted but could be carried inside a MOWAG. As for our MRV they are armed with a 30mm auto-cannon Mk44 in a Hitfist turret but they do not have a 40mm grenade MG. Those MOWAG's fitted with a RWS have either a 50cal M2HB or a 40mm GMG but not both.

    I would love the upgrade to include the new MOOG RIWP as the number of options that could be installed are amazing. We could have a RWS with a Javelin, a 30mm cannon and a 40mm GMG or many other combination. Also the reloaded can be done from inside rather than have to go outside.
    http://www.moog.com/markets/defense/...n-systems.html

    http://www.moog.com/literature/Space_Defense/Defense_Literature/riwp_javelin_datasheet_500-1069_12232015.pdf

  25. #594
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    Although I like the idea of the 120mm Centauro 2, I know that on the MOWAG replacement thread there was a lot of discussion about its worth and if such a AFV fitted any need we have. There was also a lot of mis-understanding about what is direct fire support and indirect!!

    Taking that we are looking at a replacement for the fire support role of the Scorpions and the AML9's could we go for something like the NEMO or AMOS systems? They are turreted mortars that can be fired in the traditional indirect but also in a direct mode. They have been fitted to AMV's which means they could go on a MOWAG or any other modern 8x8 such as the Timoney designed AV81 Terrex or CM32. I do favour the NEMO as those twin barrels just look the business!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwDlOdLZVwY

    Alternatively there is the CMI made CT-CV 105mm turret which has been installed on Polish versions of the AMV. Or the newer XC-8 turret which can have a 105mm or 120mm gun, both with autoloader.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X65qPiRoGe0

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  27. #595
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    I think fitting Javelins to a RWS in lieu of TOW/HOT/Spike NLOS is a bit like putting a steyr on a car because it's cheaper than a .5. I know it's more expensive to introduce new ord. into service but the increased range & payload could be worth it. One issue with cars with 105/90mm is that they could be treated like tanks when they are very much not tanks and would be in a world of hurt should they come across something like a T-55 or T-62. Buy a tank to do a tanks job not a big gunned APC.
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  28. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    I think fitting Javelins to a RWS in lieu of TOW/HOT/Spike NLOS is a bit like putting a steyr on a car because it's cheaper than a .5. I know it's more expensive to introduce new ord. into service but the increased range & payload could be worth it. One issue with cars with 105/90mm is that they could be treated like tanks when they are very much not tanks and would be in a world of hurt should they come across something like a T-55 or T-62. Buy a tank to do a tanks job not a big gunned APC.
    You're underestimating the capabilities of the Javelin, there is no armoured vehicle in existence that the Javelin can not destroy and the new Block 1 missiles have a 4,000m range.

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  30. #597
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    TOW/HOT? Not fire and forget. Being able to bug out is very important in a vehicle of this type, not wait around for the enemy to be alerted.
    Spike was evaluated by the Irish DF and Javelin did best in trials. Make what you will of that.
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  32. #598
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    MOD: Threads merged

  33. #599
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    When thinking of a replacement we must consider what role will it play? As far as I can recall the Scorpions have never been deployed abroad, neither to support a UN mission or as part of a Battlegroup training. The AML's on the other hand gave great service in UNIFIL even if they were outgunned by everything the IDF and their allies had. The Italians have sent some of their Centauro's to serve with UNIFIL.
    Attachment 8387

    If we want something that looks a bit more like a tank then there is the CV9040C from Sweden which was to Liberia when we deployed the AML's there.
    Attachment 8388

    And if something more powerful is needed then there is the CV90-120T variant, a modern light tank.
    Attachment 8389

    The big advantage of a CV90 family member is the low ground pressure of 0.5kg/cm2: which BAe System says "is designed to operate in snow and bogs"! The FV101 Scorpion has a ground pressure of 0.36kg/cm2, while a Leopard 2 has a value of 0.83kg/m2 and a man around 0.55 standing to 1.10 walking!

    True you need a tank to do a tank's job but what job is that, we know the French sent 13 Leclerc tanks to UNIFIL but even the locals laughed at this. I remember seeing one old Lebanese man saying it was a waste of effort as UNIFIL had 13 tanks while the IDF had over 3000!!! If deploying tanks are to be a deterrent then there needs to be enough that no-one will mess with them.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by EUFighter; 1st March 2017 at 05:47.

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  35. #600
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    You're underestimating the capabilities of the Javelin, there is no armoured vehicle in existence that the Javelin can not destroy and the new Block 1 missiles have a 4,000m range.
    I'm not saying the javelin isn't capable, I'm merely questioning the merits of mounting a "man portable" weapon on a vehicle when there's other weapons that may have more range/payload due to not being designed with such weight constraints. Spike NLOS is 25km because it weights 70kg but it would be carried by the vehicle!o

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    TOW/HOT? Not fire and forget. Being able to bug out is very important in a vehicle of this type, not wait around for the enemy to be alerted.
    Spike was evaluated by the Irish DF and Javelin did best in trials. Make what you will of that.
    Fair enough on the fire & forget bit, the brits bought the Spike NLOS to use in Afghanistan to have something with more range, it's evolved a lot since we evaluated it. No chance of us buying an Israeli weapon system though.

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    Eufighter none of your pics work
    Last edited by The real Jack; 1st March 2017 at 00:54.
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