Scorpion replacment?

[paul g]

HK GMG is versatile but shorter range, can it do smoke & ILLUM ? (I think it can), not an much explosive content or armour penetration compared to 90mm.

But a cheaper alternative.

Nothing about cost, the GMG/HMG on the mowag is really effective against troops in the open and technicals and that the likely opposition. As for illum/smoke, the sights on the protector rws are unbelievable, and if you do need some illum rounds then give the dismount team in the back of the CRV a 60mm commando mortar .

This desire to equip the Defence forces to re-fight Kursk with a 90mm/105mm pop gun mounted on an armoured car is more than a little amusing. The 90mm on the AML is worse than useless against modern armor, it might have made the lads in the merkava ears ring or scratched their armour but not much more.

As for the 76mm, the Scrpion was designed back in the late 1960's when the british were worried about the russian hordes. The plan was that the scimitar (30mm version) would take out the russian armoured vehicles, while the Scorpion (76mm) would engage the russian hordes of infantry, with cannister and HE.

Canada bought the Cougar (76mm ) in the 1970's as a training vehicle for their reserve tankers during the cold war (the idea was they would train on the cougar in Canada and then switch to tanks in Germany). They pressed it into regular service during bosnia, when they had nothing better. They got rid of it because they realised it was a pile of poo in terms of accuracy, and found they couldn't fire the 76mm in built up areas without causing extensive collatoral damage..

As for a 105mm on a mowag, the americans have had massive problems with their concept, (admitedly mostly self inflicted), and are now moving to a mix of 30mm/40mm AGL/12.7mm mix to support their infantry. I suspect that after a decade of war mostly they know what they're doing.

[paul g]

What would the performance of the 76mm be like in comparison to the 30mm on the MRV? Is the performance of an older but bigger weapon sufficiently superior to that of a more modern but smaller calibre to justify the conversion? Do we have sufficient stocks of 76mm ammo, or access to new ammo at a decent price, to make the conversion economically viable?

the 76mm on the Scorpion is an adoption of an old naval saluting gun dating back to the end of the 19th century.

the 30mm on the mowag is state of the art, in service with countless nations, with new types of ammuntion/fuses in the process of development.

there really is no comparison, the 30mm is miles ahead.

[ropebag]

...there really is no comparison, the 30mm is miles ahead.

except that won't go, err... miles ahead of 76mm, or indeed anything else...

30mm is vastly better at brassing up technicals at 1000m than 76mm, no one disputes that - what it can not do is brass up a mortar or rocket post at 4500m.

[paul g]

except that won't go, err... miles ahead of 76mm, or indeed anything else...

30mm is vastly better at brassing up technicals at 1000m than 76mm, no one disputes that - what it can not do is brass up a mortar or rocket post at 4500m.

No, 30mm is much better, longer range in direct fire mode (3,000 metres compared to the 2,200 on the scorpion), more accurate, much higher rate of fire, more diverse types of ammunition.

At 4,500 metres range, nobody would use the 76mm indirect fire system on the scorpion to engage a target at that range, the Fire control is too innacurate, they'd use a proper and accurate indirect weapons system like a mortar, rocket or artillery.

[DeV]

Think outside the box. 105 is overkill absolutely.

Engaging bunkers
Engaging light armour (eg APCs & AFVs)
Engaging old MBTs (eg T-60, T-72 etc) - not sure how a 90mm would fair but...

ILLUM:
There are times overseas when you want to make yourself seen (eg discouraging AEs from carrying on what they are doing)
As part of a feint
Support to infantry

[paul g]

Thin

ILLUM:
There are times overseas when you want to make yourself seen (eg discouraging AEs from carrying on what they are doing)
As part of a feint
Support to infantry

which is why they've bought 5000 60mm mortar illum rounds over the past five years.

threre is no illum round for the 76mm, never has been

[X-RayOne]

they'd use a proper and accurate indirect weapons system like a mortar, rocket or artillery.

yes THEY probably would but we have to catch up with that concept yet! Despite recent history of most overseas deployments being patrol type situations outside organic fire support range.

[ropebag]

...At 4,500 metres range, nobody would use the 76mm indirect fire system on the scorpion to engage a target at that range, the Fire control is too innacurate, they'd use a proper and accurate indirect weapons system like a mortar, rocket or artillery.

at 4500m, with the kind of ROE's that Irish forces operate under, you'd use GPS guided ammunition. 30mm won't go to 4500m, or 6000m - 76mm will. its not a good calibre, its got bog all peneration, its a dead end in terms of development - but its what Ireland has got.

[paul g]

yes THEY probably would but we have to catch up with that concept yet! Despite recent history of most overseas deployments being patrol type situations outside organic fire support range.

Actually we have caught up, look at the way ISTAR company is structured, the effort artillery have put into developing fire support teams, its all about interoperability and joint operations these days.

[Archimedes]

Canada bought the Cougar (76mm ) in the 1970's as a training vehicle for their reserve tankers during the cold war (the idea was they would train on the cougar in Canada and then switch to tanks in Germany). They pressed it into regular service during bosnia, when they had nothing better. They got rid of it because they realised it was a pile of poo in terms of accuracy, and found they couldn't fire the 76mm in built up areas without causing extensive collatoral damage.

Thanks for the extra info on this Paul and fair play to everyone for being constructive even if they thought the idea was ridiculous.
I'd like to play devil's advocate just once more though.

Was the gun considered inaccurate because of limitations of the gun or the fire control?
Cav types are used to firing high velocity weapons with a fairly flat trajectory so it doesn't really matter if they are a bit out with their range estimation. They certainly never bother with such trivia as non-rigidity of the trajectory or variation of MV with charge temperature.
The medium muzzle velocity of the 76mm requires a bit more calculation to use accurately in direct fire mode but it is actually far better suited that a high velocity gun for indirect fire tasks where an arcing trajectory is desirable.
I'm guessing that there probably wasn't even a laser range finder in the Cougar to get an accurate range in the first place.
Perhaps all that is needed to obtain some accuracy is an LRF linked to a touch screen with some sensors to crunch the data and spit out a TE.
(or else take them off the party hat brigade and give them to the white lanyard brigade)

Add in some off the shelf components like a gyro north-finder for orientation linked to GPS/inertial navigation and suddenly anyone can give you target co-ordinates and you can start dropping HE / Smoke / Illum on them.
(It was mentioned that Illum wasn't available but the document here suggests that it is http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/PDFs/C...%202011%29.pdf ) I also note that the HE uses the same PD M557 fuse used in 105 ammo so it should also be possible to swap for proximity, MRF or other more modern fuses if required.

At the end of the day, the gun is nothing special, has no auto-loader or bells and whistles of any kind. I still wonder though, if given some fire-control smarts and a re-think of how its employed, the range of ammo available could give good stand-off support when mounted in a PIII. If not, its time to scrap them once and for all.

[paul g]

Thanks for the extra info on this Paul and fair play to everyone for being constructive even if they thought the idea was ridiculous.
I'd like to play devil's advocate just once more though.

Was the gun considered inaccurate because of limitations of the gun or the fire control?
Cav types are used to firing high velocity weapons with a fairly flat trajectory so it doesn't really matter if they are a bit out with their range estimation. They certainly never bother with such trivia as non-rigidity of the trajectory or variation of MV with charge temperature.
The medium muzzle velocity of the 76mm requires a bit more calculation to use accurately in direct fire mode but it is actually far better suited that a high velocity gun for indirect fire tasks where an arcing trajectory is desirable.
I'm guessing that there probably wasn't even a laser range finder in the Cougar to get an accurate range in the first place.
Perhaps all that is needed to obtain some accuracy is an LRF linked to a touch screen with some sensors to crunch the data and spit out a TE.
(or else take them off the party hat brigade and give them to the white lanyard brigade)

Add in some off the shelf components like a gyro north-finder for orientation linked to GPS/inertial navigation and suddenly anyone can give you target co-ordinates and you can start dropping HE / Smoke / Illum on them.
(It was mentioned that Illum wasn't available but the document here suggests that it is http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/PDFs/C...%202011%29.pdf ) I also note that the HE uses the same PD M557 fuse used in 105 ammo so it should also be possible to swap for proximity, MRF or other more modern fuses if required.

At the end of the day, the gun is nothing special, has no auto-loader or bells and whistles of any kind. I still wonder though, if given some fire-control smarts and a re-think of how its employed, the range of ammo available could give good stand-off support when mounted in a PIII. If not, its time to scrap them once and for all.

Atrchimedes,

Have a read of the attached document, its old, but has a lot of info on the canadian experience in Bosnia with the cougar. Look in particular at page 14/15

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ddiNc25IFzAJ:www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA324376+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

The Canadian found that in Somalia and Bosnia the majority of the fire came from snipers and people taking shots at them from buildings. In that situation, the 76mm was an over reactiion. Hence why the protector weapons sight with the gmg/12.7mm is super accurate and limits collatoral damage.

[hptmurphy]

bad link ?

[DeV]

which is why they've bought 5000 60mm mortar illum rounds over the past five years.

threre is no illum round for the 76mm, never has been

http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/PDFs/Contents/Ammunition%20%288%20November%202011%29.pdf

[GoneToTheCanner]

Didn't that ammunition document about the 76mm round mention that it's lethal radius for HE was only 6 to 8 metres? That's hardly better than an 81mm mortar? It's not going to be effective against a well dug-in enemy. Apart from that, isn't the 40mm grenade round still the same old M79 round of the Vietnam days? In the Irish context, if you remove the 76mm from service, does it then leave a capability gap that the 30mm doesn't fill/

regards
GttC

[Archimedes]

Atrchimedes,

Have a read of the attached document, its old, but has a lot of info on the canadian experience in Bosnia with the cougar. Look in particular at page 14/15

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ddiNc25IFzAJ:www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA324376+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

The Canadian found that in Somalia and Bosnia the majority of the fire came from snipers and people taking shots at them from buildings. In that situation, the 76mm was an over reactiion. Hence why the protector weapons sight with the gmg/12.7mm is super accurate and limits collatoral damage.

I totally agree that you don't go around destroying a civilian building because of one sniper (though some armies do) and that using a 76mm for that purpose is completely over the top. Neither am I suggesting that the excellent RWS/12.7/AGL should be replaced by the 76mm.
If we want to have something bigger just in case though or we want to be able to deploy smoke/illum at a distance without having to dismount and set up a mortar, the 76mm turrets could be a safe way to support a patrol at medium ranges knowing that you are carrying a biggish stick in case you ever need it.