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  1. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    I stand corrected, the press release just said III's, it didn't mention the exact version but even if they already have IIIC's the differences are minor. There is the III+ which was launched last year and ordered by the Swiss as a mortar carrier.
    Not sure what variant they got but the were Piranha III so they are still in production

  2. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    i always find the obsession with the 90mm hilarious, it comes from the aml90 in the Lebanon but ignores the fact that the 90 mm round from a low pressure gun was totally obsolete concert even in the 1980s. if they had ever fired against a merkava they might have scratched the paint if they were lucky, but that's about it.

    People also think about the aml/ratel in South African service which also ignores that they were up against Angolan army tank crews who were badly trained and thus were able to use near sucidal tactics that had they been employed against half way competent opponents would have seen the South African severely defeated. The half track at an tiri Is an indication of The 90mm performance, a ww2 vehicle defeated by a ww2 era piece of ammunition.

    That's why they were experimenting in the late 1980s with a new turret on the aml with a 25-30mm weapon, because they wanted something in the Lebanon that wasn't obsolete.
    Is anyone suggesting taking on current gen MBT with a 90mm. Not withstanding the fact that 90mm ammo has come on too (MECAR make a APFSDS-T 90mm round for the Mk8 with a tungsten sabot which will penetrate 300mm of RHA at 2km).

    A heavier target means a Javelin.

    The idea is more of support fire taking on light armour, fortifications, etc

    30mm especially the version that the MRV uses us do much more effective, Better performance against modern armor and there are different types of fuses.
    Any specs?

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  4. #778
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    The South Africans were compelled to use the 90mm against T55s and other Russian made armour as their heavy Olifants with 105s could not move through the bush country as well as the wheeled armour. Several times, the 90mm gun had to fire multiple shots to get destructive kills against T55s, especially against the turrets. An advantage of the short 90mm was it's ability to be traversed in heavy woodland, whereas the 100mm of the T55 could not and some kills happened because of this. The South Africans were very aware of the limitations of the gun, which is why they made more effort to get the Olifants forward, but this led to more mine casualties and it made recovery harder. As for more modern warfare, Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other more recent wars, have shown the utility of a direct fire gun, to supplement the missile and the mortar. Ireland isn't going to buy MBTs or tracks of any kind so a good wheeled AFV is all that's left, so a good 90mm, to supplement the 30mm and the GMG and the mortar, will have to do. It would be nice to have a wheeled 105, but I suspect that that is one leap too far for the DF.

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  6. #779
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    Not all 90mm are the same just as the 76mm from the Scorpion was not the same round as that used by the Naval Service. The AML90's was a low pressure round, still capable of providing direct fire with HE and HEAT rounds, against fortified positions, lightly armoured vehicles and technical it does the job. The South Africans mounted it on the Ratel IFV's to provide organic fire support to their Ratel units. The CMI MK8 90mm guns is a modern weapon with much more capability and can do damage to some MBT's if it gets close enough. And that can be factor as seen during the 1991 in Iraq where the Soviet made 125mm equipped tanks were outgunned by the 120mm NATO.

    The CMI Mk8 is a good gun especially if weight is an issue, and as already mentioned here CMI have a modular turret system the CMI3000 series which can mount a 30mm, a 35mm, a 90mm or a 105mm gun. An option could be to start with it fitted with a 90mm and then move to a 105mm is needed. But as always the operation need should be driving a selection along with how it fits available platforms to carry it. 90mm Mk8 are on the Belgium IIIC's so tick in the box, the 105mm NATO in on the Stryker MGS (cousin of III) so again possible on our IIIH's. But the latter is pushing it a bit to the limit for a 20t vehicle, better would have been a 25t platform. And if a 120mm NATO was to be fitted then I would prefer a 30t platform.

    There are a number of things the 120mm has going for it apart from packing more punch and that is you do not have loads of empty brass casings to get rid of out of the turret as most of the casing is combustible leaving only a small base to eject.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 24th November 2017 at 05:51.

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  8. #780
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    The Belgians are due to replace the Piranhas from 2025, with the French VBMR Griffon in the taxi role and the EBRC Jaguar for support. The Jaguar carries a 40mm cannon and also has guided missiles for the heavier targets. Both will be 25 tonne vehicles.
    https://www.armyrecognition.com/june..._22306174.html
    The French design their armoured forces around expeditionary operations in Africa where maintaining tracked vehicles is difficult and they seem to prefer fast, light and wheeled (I know they also bring the Leclercs). It seems to me that both their concept of ops and experience have a lot that should be of interest to Ireland.

    There is also the possibility that the Belgian 90mm turret decision was pure pork barrel.
    The only producer of the ammunition is in the constituency of the Belgian Defence Minister at the time of the contract.
    https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...s-ensue-01872/
    Last edited by expat01; 24th November 2017 at 06:49.

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  10. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    The Belgians are due to replace the Piranhas from 2025, with the French VBMR Griffon in the taxi role and the EBRC Jaguar for support. The Jaguar carries a 40mm cannon and also has guided missiles for the heavier targets. Both will be 25 tonne vehicles.
    https://www.armyrecognition.com/june..._22306174.html
    The French design their armoured forces around expeditionary operations in Africa where maintaining tracked vehicles is difficult and they seem to prefer fast, light and wheeled (I know they also bring the Leclercs). It seems to me that both their concept of ops and experience have a lot that should be of interest to Ireland.

    There is also the possibility that the Belgian 90mm turret decision was pure pork barrel.
    The only producer of the ammunition is in the constituency of the Belgian Defence Minister at the time of the contract.
    https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...s-ensue-01872/
    EBRC isn’t in production yet that would be my worry

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  12. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    EBRC isn’t in production yet that would be my worry
    Oh I agree, we should not go that route until after the French and Belgians field it.
    If we want something now it should be proven and powerful, which still means 105 or 120.
    The new 90 seems a solution in search of a problem in my view. It would probably be stuck on a Mowag which involves replicating a design the Belgians are dumping and limits us to one single ammo factory.

    If we are not buying now then waiting for both the Jaguar and better Defence budgets is attractive. The French are offsetting the loss of the AMX 10’s 105 by sticking guided missiles on to supplement the 40. That has the attractiveness of a main gun you don’t mind shooting often backed up by a solid punch if a nasty hard target comes around.
    But then we have the specifically Irish drawback of the DoD not wanting to buy missiles and so looking for a special Irish variant that is not fitted with it. Therefore making it a pointless purchase.

  13. #783
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    I’ve just had a proper read about the missile. It is to replace the Milan as a man-portable ATGM and is only entering French service now. Be important to see if it gets any international sales by the time the Jaguar starts entering French service in 2020, if so it could then serve as a replacement for our Milans and so increase the attractiveness of the Jaguar package.
    The 40 is the CT40 firing telescoped ammunition. Also untested, but due to be fitted to the UK’s Ajax so we should see feedback from the British before the French field it.

    Th consortium building both Griffon and Jaguar are required to keep cost per vehicle at €1 million. The Belgian contract is for €1.1 billion for “60 Jaguar and 417 Griffon vehicles...includes spare parts and secure communications equipment ” (Wikipedia). Get the same deal and we could have 80 griffons and 10 Jaguars for about 220 million.
    Last edited by expat01; 24th November 2017 at 09:35.

  14. #784
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    MILAN was replaced in Irish service over 10 years ago. I’d want commonality as it isn’t as if hundreds are going to fired a year or that we are going to have 100 vehicles in service.

    Realistically is it worth going for 40mm CTA? Is there that much of a difference with 30mm? (I don’t know hence the question)

    There is more than 1 type of 90mm gun and more than 1 manufacturer of 90mm ammo (but they aren’t necessarily interchangeable)

    Of course a 105 is an option but if we are going for sticking a turret on a MOWAG is it suitable?

  15. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The South Africans were compelled to use the 90mm against T55s and other Russian made armour as their heavy Olifants with 105s could not move through the bush country as well as the wheeled armour. Several times, the 90mm gun had to fire multiple shots to get destructive kills against T55s, especially against the turrets. An advantage of the short 90mm was it's ability to be traversed in heavy woodland, whereas the 100mm of the T55 could not and some kills happened because of this. The South Africans were very aware of the limitations of the gun, which is why they made more effort to get the Olifants forward, but this led to more mine casualties and it made recovery harder. As for more modern warfare, Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other more recent wars, have shown the utility of a direct fire gun, to supplement the missile and the mortar. Ireland isn't going to buy MBTs or tracks of any kind so a good wheeled AFV is all that's left, so a good 90mm, to supplement the 30mm and the GMG and the mortar, will have to do. It would be nice to have a wheeled 105, but I suspect that that is one leap too far for the DF.
    the only problem being that the South Africans, as a direct consequence of this experience set about developing a 30mm cannon and their ratel replacements direct fire variant will have a 30mm.

  16. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    the only problem being that the South Africans, as a direct consequence of this experience set about developing a 30mm cannon and their ratel replacements direct fire variant will have a 30mm.
    Yes, but with an Ingwe ATGM launcher added on...also their mortar carrier is only going to have a 60mm...so you'd have to question their rational.

  17. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    ...Realistically is it worth going for 40mm CTA? Is there that much of a difference with 30mm? (I don’t know hence the question)...
    Not really - 40mm isn't that much better than lots of 30mm. There's nothing that 40 can do that 30 can't - it might do it a bit quicker, or at a slightly greater range - but it's not the difference between a 9mm pistol and a 5.56 rifle.

    40mm won't do what 30mm also won't do - which is go far enough to hit rocket or mortar firing positions - while 30mm is fine for brassing up soft vehicles, IFV, and dug in MG positions.

    40mm isn't going to do much more damage to a modern MBT than 30mm - like 30mm you might get a mobility or mission kill, but you aren't going to destroy it anymore than you would with a 30mm, so it seems a bit of a waste of time.

    The problem isn't 30mm, it's a lack of organic or immediately available firepower for ranges greater than Javelin will achieve but less than the maximum ranges of weapons that are commonplace among every non-state actor outside of Europe.

    A 105mm armed MOWAG isn't really going to change that, so it seems to offer little for the effort and cost of fielding it.

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  19. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Not really - 40mm isn't that much better than lots of 30mm. There's nothing that 40 can do that 30 can't - it might do it a bit quicker, or at a slightly greater range - but it's not the difference between a 9mm pistol and a 5.56 rifle.

    40mm won't do what 30mm also won't do - which is go far enough to hit rocket or mortar firing positions - while 30mm is fine for brassing up soft vehicles, IFV, and dug in MG positions.

    40mm isn't going to do much more damage to a modern MBT than 30mm - like 30mm you might get a mobility or mission kill, but you aren't going to destroy it anymore than you would with a 30mm, so it seems a bit of a waste of time.

    The problem isn't 30mm, it's a lack of organic or immediately available firepower for ranges greater than Javelin will achieve but less than the maximum ranges of weapons that are commonplace among every non-state actor outside of Europe.

    A 105mm armed MOWAG isn't really going to change that, so it seems to offer little for the effort and cost of fielding it.
    Neither is a 120mm armed MBT

  20. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    The problem isn't 30mm, it's a lack of organic or immediately available firepower for ranges greater than Javelin will achieve but less than the maximum ranges of weapons that are commonplace among every non-state actor outside of Europe.
    Greater than 2,500 - 4,000 metres? What is the only thing any actor has that beats that?
    Anything greater is artillery.

    I think the only reason 40mm came up is because it’s part of a particular package..and one that isn’t proven yet.

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  22. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    the only problem being that the South Africans, as a direct consequence of this experience set about developing a 30mm cannon and their ratel replacements direct fire variant will have a 30mm.
    Don’t forget that, even if the terrain doesn’t allow for the ever-extended Olifant MBT, the SANDF fields that in organic formations including ATGM firing Rooikats and G6 self propelled 155 artillery. 30mm - firing Badgers aren’t meant to operate in a vacuum.

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  24. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    The problem isn't 30mm, it's a lack of organic or immediately available firepower for ranges greater than Javelin will achieve but less than the maximum ranges of weapons that are commonplace among every non-state actor outside of Europe.
    HMG

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    Given the abilities of the new 70mm air to ground rockets, with terminal guidance and so on, it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to fit a small launcher for them to a vehicle.

  26. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Given the abilities of the new 70mm air to ground rockets, with terminal guidance and so on, it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to fit a small launcher for them to a vehicle.
    Someone has already thought of that:
    http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/15...supacat-lr600/

  27. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    Don’t forget that, even if the terrain doesn’t allow for the ever-extended Olifant MBT, the SANDF fields that in organic formations including ATGM firing Rooikats and G6 self propelled 155 artillery. 30mm - firing Badgers aren’t meant to operate in a vacuum.
    I know, and not a low velocity 90mm round anyplace to be found

  28. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    I know, and not a low velocity 90mm round anyplace to be found
    If you want a HP gun there is the Centauro II....

    Or if you want to go with a Piranha...here's the Cokerill 105MM HP gun

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  30. #796
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    alot of sources have said 105mm on a Piranha 111 is very unpleasant for the crew in relation to gun recoil, vibrations from firing, etc. that's part reason Belgians limited their gun to 90mm. You want a bigger gun on a hull you need a bigger hull.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqus are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  32. #797
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    It is do-able CMI CT-CV 105mm HP has an auto loader and is an unmanned turret.

    It was to go into Polish service, did it ever make it?

  33. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Someone has already thought of that:
    http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/15...supacat-lr600/
    there have been ad-hoc uses of aircraft rocket pods as far back as the Falklands (68mm RP fired from pods) and in the Iraq and Syria wars (57mm RP fired from pods bolted to vehicles or simply propped up on a ground mount and aimed by eye.

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  35. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    there have been ad-hoc uses of aircraft rocket pods as far back as the Falklands (68mm RP fired from pods) and in the Iraq and Syria wars (57mm RP fired from pods bolted to vehicles or simply propped up on a ground mount and aimed by eye.
    Attachment 8494
    http://www.operatorchan.org/v/src/146611852081.jpg
    Time for another break I think......

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  37. #800
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    yep, that's a Russian rocket pod, fitted to practically every Russian combat aircraft and helicopter.....nice land cruiser, too.

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