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  • I know, Murph, but the AMLs are a case in point where they were upgraded to a point where they were reasonably useful and then chopped from the line-up, which made observers wonder what the hell the upgrade was fo
    By the time the upgrade was accepted and carried out the Cav were looking at something else. If the archive here could date back to then, I could be quoted on that from which I was told from those who made choices.

    Upgrades re ok if they are delivered within an acceptable time frame but to deliver an upgrade after the upgrade has been deemed outmoded is stupid.

    AML20 is point in case. NATO had declare the calibre to be below that required 5 years before we accepted it..QED
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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    • These were the kind of issues I was outlining...
      It 'decided' that the AMLs no longer had a role...that did not mean that they could not be used or were suddenly unusable or broken.

      NATO have 'declared' that 20mm(x139mm length) ammunition weapons were no longer standard - presumably in the frame of mind for amour on armour purposes i.e. new armoured vehicles.
      - APCs having front hulls that could protect against at least 20mm shells whereas, maybe 12.7mm (x99 length) Heavy Machinegun bullets was a previous minimum front hull standard. This is to make way I think, for 25mm weapons to be the new minimum NATO standard.

      Though Ireland is not in NATO so it can choose/retain whatever it feels decides is judicious for example and note, there can be definite pit falls in deciding to always follow current, perceived/stated 'best practice'....and always trying to be seen to been 'professional'...

      That is not to say that armoured vehicles are not still in wide use, and also still being produced, that are still vulnerable to 20mm from all sides, and even the heavy most up-to-date APCs/MICVs are likely also still vulnerable to 20mm from the sides (if attacking such vehicles was a major current concern/likelihood for the Irish Army, and such vehicles were to appear in the low-intensity, one-sided 'asymmetrical' conflicts that are meant to be the current and future template for warfare...).

      It is also to conveniently ignore the fact that 12.7mm ammunition is still a standard after some 70 years...
      and is fielded by pretty much every western army including Ireland's, and is being considered for the remote weapons station (RWS) for the proposed Mowag upgrades yet,..

      20mm rounds declared invalid/obselete still have twice the armour penetration potential, higher velocity, 3 times the shell weight, and weapons mounts with the same and higher rates of potential fire than the standard heavy machinegun; and Germany Army Wiesels (and Marders?) and French Army VABs (and VCTs?) are still running around with 20mm, as are the (Irish) Naval Service ships (even if the feed links are different to the AML20 feeds).

      This is also similar to 'misnomers' sometimes linked to 'best in class' and 'worst in class' statements ... e.g. PC9s are 'best in class'...as trainers, but that would be torn apart by most jet trainers. 130mm former Russian based artillery fire probably the lightest shells in their 'Heavy Artillery' family class of weapons so, 'worst in class' but, these same shells are twice the weight of common 105mm artillery shells, and have better inherent range than pretty much all other towed heavy artillery weapons. 20mm weapons as armour/anti-armour cannons are the smallest usually available (besides smaller on APC/LTAV/up-armoured Hummers etc.etc.) and therefore 'worst in class' but, are superior to 12.7mm weapons, and their NATO compatibility or not would matter little in most situations... such as if they were put in RWS (or not), and then fired at people, small buildings and LTAV, Hummers, VBL and BRDM scout cars, BRT APCs and BMP MICV, or at small ships or helicopters/planes and so on.

      That's not to say that AMLs (90s or 20) or Scorpions, or Mowags with Scorpion (or AML) turrets with unmodified sights have to be put into 'front line' service - whatever that may mean for various Defence Forces missions at home or abroad.

      P.S. is not 'wheeled military vehicle'; shorthand for 'everlasting'?!

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      • More from my Canuck acquaintance:

        I also forgot to mention in our discussion, that our Scorpion turrets had developed stress cracks in the welds and around the gun mount. That, along with cost reduction, is what led them to being pulled from the reserve force inventory.

        I understand budget constraints would be behind the ideal of mounting those old turrets to the LAV III hull, but it would probably be cheaper in the long run to go with the same turret that we and the Americans use. Not to mention the fact that a fully stabilized modern weapon system is much more useful that a 1960's design.

        The two pics that I am attaching are of a glancing shot that hit to the left side of the cmdrs hatch (right as you look at it) on a T-55. You can see how it cracked the turret roof and some spalling on the loaders hatch. There was a considerable amount of spall thrown into the turret that would have killed the entire turret crew and possibly set off the ammo.

        I do remember that the hits on the M-47 and Centurion were solid hits to the side of the turrets and resulted in approximately 12" diameter chunks of spall being thrown into the crew compartment.
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        "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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        • Nice pictures, FM. that HESH round seems to be quite capable.

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          • ATO have 'declared' that 20mm(x139mm length) ammunition weapons were no longer standard - presumably in the frame of mind for amour on armour purposes i.e. new armoured vehicles.
            - APCs having front hulls that could protect against at least 20mm shells whereas, maybe 12.7mm (x99 length) Heavy Machinegun bullets was a previous minimum front hull standard. This is to make way I think, for 25mm weapons to be the new minimum NATO standard.
            The 25mm round was held to be the optimum round prior to the purchase of the AML20 turrets. The statement is based on an aniti armour weapon.

            20mm rounds declared invalid/obselete still have twice the armour penetration potential, higher velocity, 3 times the shell weight, and weapons mounts with the same and higher rates of potential fire than the standard heavy machinegun; and Germany Army Wiesels (and Marders?) and French Army VABs (and VCTs?) are still running around with 20mm, as are the (Irish) Naval Service ships (even if the feed links are different to the AML20 feeds
            Have a look at the 20mm ammo types available for the different weapons, very little co relation, and the ammo for the RH202 and Giat are completely different weapons, The NS ones were never intended as anti armour weapons and as a result the performance is adequate for the role.
            Last edited by hptmurphy; 13 May 2014, 22:24.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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            • Also, when it comes to effect on target, a 30mm round is devastating even compared to a 20mm. I'm not against 20mm, per se, but NATO have been moving away from it via 25 and 27mm for years.

              regards
              GttC

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              • as important as the 20mm vs Armour issue is, 20mm is surprisingly crap against mud-walled structures. and by surprisingly i mean frighteningly, and by crap i mean utterly ineffective.

                think of a 5yo girl throwing snowballs at the walls of Hell, and you've a pretty good picture.

                bigger, much bigger round required.

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                • Somewhere. Somewhere deep inside a box, under a bed. Is I think a second hand, flea market acquired, c,1980's An Cosantoir DF magazine of mine bought years ago, that had an article showing an AML60, modified with a 25mm cannon turret on a trial, with pictures of it firing in Ireland.

                  Just to check I wasn't mad in thinking that, I just looked it up, and there are pictures of the AML with a 25mm Bushmaster cannon, and another with a 30mm Rarden cannon, on trial in Ireland, in the archives of this website.

                  Photos as posted by Rhodes, on 9th May, 2012.
                  Here:


                  ....I assume the 25mm cannon upgrade was not adopted due to the fact it was so, terrifyingly, ugly!

                  Main point I was making above though was, re: 20mm cannon, is that I assume it is still better than a 12.7 for vehicles?

                  And for the 'micro-tanks' (!) that the Irish Army has (AMLs and Scorpions) - would not properly storing and/or giving them very light use with less strenuous 2nd line alternative roles, be more resourceful and more responsible? Better than the apparent denuding in some respect of general 'offensive' armour and slide towards the army being increasingly more infantry based (but with APCs)?

                  Better also, to retain its 'micro tanks' due to the fact it does not have in its possession, or any prospect of any, light tanks? Or medium tanks. Or heavy/ 'Main Battle Tanks'
                  (though I don't really ever see the Army going the very latter mentioned) or any APC/Tanks aka MICVs (Mechanised Infantry Combat Vehicles).

                  Final thought... Could a Scorpion (with its turret detached? (would an AML90 gun fit in it?)) or AML 90 (detached wheels or turret?) be slid into the back of a Casa 295?..
                  You know, for mud wall displacement duties, and scaring away local bad boys in Africa?!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
                    ...Final thought... Could a Scorpion (with its turret detached? (would an AML90 gun fit in it?)) or AML 90 (detached wheels or turret?) be slid into the back of a Casa 295?..
                    You know, for mud wall displacement duties, and scaring away local bad boys in Africa?!
                    no chance - it'll fit in a C-130, and IIRC, a C-27, but not in a CASA-295. you can, of course, hang it under the mighty Wokka...

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                    • And for the 'micro-tanks' (!) that the Irish Army has (AMLs and Scorpions) - would not properly storing and/or giving them very light use with less strenuous 2nd line alternative roles, be more resourceful and more responsible? Better than the apparent denuding in some respect of general 'offensive' armour and slide towards the army being increasingly more infantry based (but with APCs)?
                      AML 90s were retired 12 months ago...gone.....history, surplus to requirements!

                      inal thought... Could a Scorpion (with its turret detached? (would an AML90 gun fit in it?)) or AML 90 (detached wheels or turret?) be slid into the back of a Casa 295?..
                      You know, for mud wall displacement duties, and scaring away local bad boys in Africa?!
                      Final thought for ever or on the subject...?

                      Ever seen what it takes to remove a turret, weight of an AML 90 is 5 tons and we operate neither AMLs 90s or Casa 295s.

                      The AML 90s ammunition stock has been exhausted. The MIRV is now the main fire support of the Cavalry.

                      We couldn't keep the entire fleet of AML 60s , 20s, 127 and 90s operational while in service never mind on standby.

                      The AML 90 gun is not suitbale for the Scorpion turret for reasons discussed previously.

                      Main point I was making above though was, re: 20mm cannon, is that I assume it is still better than a 12.7 for vehicles?
                      Depends on the gun, the percieved role and the mount.

                      20mm s as mounted on the AML 20s were inferior to .5s mounted in RWS stations as they were required to be hand operated in a vehicle with inferior armour and performance.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                        you can, of course, hang it under the mighty Wokka...
                        they need a Wokka.
                        RGJ

                        ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                        The Rifles

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                        • Most of the 90,s have been decommissioned at this stage, the ones in the dftc have anyway bar 1
                          The rest will follow on as gate guadians

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                          • I thought the Scorpion was trialled with a Cockerill 90mm gun. Any pics?
                            GttC

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                            • Decommissioned (AMLs) = A pity.

                              I doubt that i could be convinced that there are not a few quiet corners, in most of the DF's various sheds and buildings in its large installations, dotted around the country, that could not be used to 'mothball' all of the AMLs.

                              - As insurance.
                              ...Until replacements are acquired, &/or until they may come back into favour due to some unforeseen scenario
                              (I was looking at the various arguments for/against them in the 'Panhard AML' thread from 2012 - seemed like reasonable enough justifications for proper storage).

                              To my mind, it now makes the Scorpions, not quite as venerable as the AMLs, but.. tracked - vulnerable as next in line for any chop.

                              It also almost seems as if the DF is ‘painting itself into a corner' by restricting itself to a few limited roles - mostly playing second fiddle to larger armies in notional overseas deployments - ISTAR etc.?

                              Comment


                              • P.S. The 'Mecar' ammunition manufacturer’s website seems to show identical shells and details for the 90mm 'Cockerill' M3 and AML 'F1' guns -
                                re: gun discussions for the Scorpion (and AML).
                                Usually though, a 7.5 ton vehicle weight is indicated for mounting the Mk3 Cockerill gun (see CMI Defence).

                                See pictures and details of up-armed Scorpions here:
                                Army Guide - information about the main battle tanks, armoured vehicles and armament of the land forces and also the information concerning other army subjects - CMI Defence - Weapons & Weapon Systems


                                Details of the M3 and AML90 guns also here for comparison:
                                (same site also describes the effectiveness of the latter guns APDSFS rounds in its AML90 upgrade page).
                                Army Guide - information about the main battle tanks, armoured vehicles and armament of the land forces and also the information concerning other army subjects - Mk3M-A1, Gun, Weapons & Weapon Systems

                                Army Guide - information about the main battle tanks, armoured vehicles and armament of the land forces and also the information concerning other army subjects - CN90F1, Gun, Weapons & Weapon Systems


                                Also, three manufacturers ‘Nexter’ ‘PMP Denel’ and ‘Mecar’ all mention the cannon rounds of 20/25/30mm discussed, so study away for the comparisons for Scorpion main weapon options and previous arguments regards some of their particulars and performance.

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