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  • Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
    Decommissioned (AMLs) = A pity.

    I doubt that i could be convinced that there are not a few quiet corners, in most of the DF's various sheds and buildings in its large installations, dotted around the country, that could not be used to 'mothball' all of the AMLs.

    - As insurance.
    ...Until replacements are acquired, &/or until they may come back into favour due to some unforeseen scenario
    (I was looking at the various arguments for/against them in the 'Panhard AML' thread from 2012 - seemed like reasonable enough justifications for proper storage).

    To my mind, it now makes the Scorpions, not quite as venerable as the AMLs, but.. tracked - vulnerable as next in line for any chop.

    It also almost seems as if the DF is ‘painting itself into a corner' by restricting itself to a few limited roles - mostly playing second fiddle to larger armies in notional overseas deployments - ISTAR etc.?
    In every barracks on this fair isle there are also cannons mounted on the corners of squares from bygone days. Some are battle trophies from the Napoleonic wars, more are weapons that defended this nation from attack by allies or axis armies during the Emergency.

    Perhaps these too should be kept in reserve just in case the fuzzy-wuzzies decide to give it another go?

    There is a reason these weapons are described as "obsolete".
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

    Comment


    • There is a reason these weapons are described as "obsolete"
      obsolete often translates as shite! or Fcuked
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • Even obsolete, how much would some builders' Damp Proof/Roof Membrane, a few wooden blocks, and a semi-derelict building cost to properly mothball the AMLs - about €100 each?
        What would a roughly equivalent vehicle cost, and have such been purchased?

        Does not the proportion of spend on defence very heavily weigh on the side of salaries and wages, with little for equipment acquisitions?
        With what 9,000 persons in the Army, and circa 106 armoured vehicles; does approximately 12 armoured vehicles per 1,000 soldiers seem impressive?

        Armoured vehicles would appear to be incredibly expensive, if there were a situation here, or abroad, where the Mowags &/or LTAVs were found to be wanting, not available, not numerous enough (e.g. something to patrol around a base tougher than a 4x4 jeep, when the Mowags/LTAVs are off long range patrolling) or,
        the government did not want to commit more of its modern equipment,.. e.g. a foreign mission it did not want to pull out of..

        ...would it not be nice to have a 'free' and immediate backup under plastic?

        Comment


        • ...would it not be nice to have a 'free' and immediate backup under plastic?

          Agree with you 100%, better to be looking at it than looking for it. The DF have them (20's and 90's) there are many companies out there that can get them fit for purpose again prior to storing or reallocating. More importantly the question could be asked, why were they not handed over to RDF Cav. The expression "obsolete" is one that the DF should be used to. Enfields, Brens, 37 pattern webbing, Landsverk,,,,,,,, the list goes on and on and on. But when there is no alternative make the best of what you got. Some will say the 20mm and 90mm rds are totally useless, depending on what your firing at, yes i agree, it wont take out a Challenger 2. But seriously, will the DF ever be in a position where they will need to? No. But look at the DF's overseas role where the most lightly target (excuse the expression) will be light vehicles which will support some sort of weapon system. Perfect! Half a dozen 20mm rds into that and no more worries. Some chap with an RPG in a compound threatening the Guinness run, a single 90mm rd into the compound wall will sort him and his No 2 out. Flippant but you see my point. Add up the role of the DF overseas, their ROE/RUF, their political masters concerns about receiving and inflicting casualties and in reality you find that the AML's were just the tool for the job. Not capable of of taking out a city block but where necessary capable of taking out a credible (and the most lightly to be faced) threat. Force Protection, keeping the boys and girls coming home safe and sound.
          We travel not for trafficking alone,
          By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
          For lust of knowing what should not be known,
          We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Archimedes View Post
            I totally agree that you don't go around destroying a civilian building because of one sniper (though some armies do) and that using a 76mm for that purpose is completely over the top.
            Really? Care to elaborate? Are you comparing a peace keeping operation to an actual war by any chance? Where one scenario has a pig farmer in a combat jacket with a hunting rifle taking potshots at his neighbor across the river because he does not like the god he prays to. Where the interim force cuts about in white armour with huge UN stickers on the side (Don't shoot me, I'm the good guy) has very restricted ROE/RUF and will use them only when all else fails and as a total last resort. Then you have the other scenario where that sniper is part of a complex attack that involves dozens of combatants with AK's, PKM,s mortar's and 107's, body borne IED's and other nastiness. Where said sniper has your C/S pinned down and under effective enemy fire (your taking casualties "dead people") and his mates are maneuvering to finish your C/S off. Must say in the second scenario every possible means at ones disposal would be utilised to "discourage" said sniper. Including bringing the ornate rose patterned ceiling of the building he is ensconced in down on his head by way of Javelin, Excalibur, AH, JDAM,,,,,,,, in fact anything I could dial up at the time.

            Just asking like. Unqualified comments can sometimes lead to confusion.
            We travel not for trafficking alone,
            By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
            For lust of knowing what should not be known,
            We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

            Comment


            • Just a quick question, putting together some Modern Irish for wargaming,

              Picked up a Scorpion model and it has 2 different types of sprocket "late" and "early" Would a scorpion in 1986 in the IDF be using the early or late sprockets?

              Any help would be much appreciated.

              Comment


              • Or even better if anyone has any photos of Irish Scorpions in the mid/late 80s.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
                  Decommissioned (AMLs) = A pity.

                  I doubt that i could be convinced that there are not a few quiet corners, in most of the DF's various sheds and buildings in its large installations, dotted around the country, that could not be used to 'mothball' all of the AMLs.

                  - As insurance.
                  ...Until replacements are acquired, &/or until they may come back into favour due to some unforeseen scenario
                  (I was looking at the various arguments for/against them in the 'Panhard AML' thread from 2012 - seemed like reasonable enough justifications for proper storage).

                  To my mind, it now makes the Scorpions, not quite as venerable as the AMLs, but.. tracked - vulnerable as next in line for any chop.

                  It also almost seems as if the DF is ‘painting itself into a corner' by restricting itself to a few limited roles - mostly playing second fiddle to larger armies in notional overseas deployments - ISTAR etc.?


                  I'd like to see the acqusition of enough CV 90 armoured combat vehicles (with the 90 mm or 105 mm variant) to equip a real armoured cavalry troop (a couple of command vehicles, 4 platoons of 4 CV 90's each, a supporting mechanized infantry platoon, a battery of 2 105's and 2 120 mm mortars, a recce platoon with cavalry Mowags/LTAV's).

                  That would at least give DFTC a strategic reserve of fairly modern vehicles accompanied with enough striking power, combined with the 1st Mechanized Infantry Company at The Curragh, to be credible in that role.

                  Combat Vehicle 90 (CV90), also called Stridsfordon 90 (Strf 90), represents a family of armoured combat vehicles developed by BAE…




                  Comment


                  • The Brits are replacing the CVR Scimitar with General Dynamics Scout SV. Link - http://www.army.mod.uk/news/26536.aspx

                    Plans for the first equipped squadron is targeted for 2019 and 589 vehicles will be delivered in the end.
                    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ODIN View Post
                      The Brits are replacing the CVR Scimitar with General Dynamics Scout SV. Link - http://www.army.mod.uk/news/26536.aspx

                      Plans for the first equipped squadron is targeted for 2019 and 589 vehicles will be delivered in the end.
                      Yes please.
                      I knew a simple soldier boy.....
                      Who grinned at life in empty joy,
                      Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
                      And whistled early with the lark.

                      In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
                      With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
                      He put a bullet through his brain.
                      And no one spoke of him again.

                      You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
                      Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
                      Sneak home and pray you'll never know
                      The hell where youth and laughter go.

                      Comment


                      • Could another 30 or so not be added on to the end of the run, I wonder?
                        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                        Comment


                        • The 2019 in service date doesn't really lend itself to an urgent operational requirement - meaning there'd probably have to be a tendering process and a new government or two in the meantime.

                          But would be nice to see.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pym View Post
                            The 2019 in service date doesn't really lend itself to an urgent operational requirement - meaning there'd probably have to be a tendering process and a new government or two in the meantime.

                            But would be nice to see.
                            its one of several projects of this type at the moment, all with a pretty similar in service date, Poland's anders and Stealth Tank, along with the bundeswher's puma.

                            To be honest, it wouldn't be the front runner even if there was a tender. If they were going for a tracked complment to the MRV/CRV then they'd go for something with the hitfist turret. It also only carries three dismounts compared to the MRV/CRV four, so we'd have to change doctrine. I believe that the hull are being built in Spain and then are going to be shipped to Wales to be finished off, which is good for british jobs, but not for prices. It also has a door at the back rather than the mowag's ramp.

                            Ten more mrv/CRV would be far cheaper and far more practical use
                            Last edited by paul g; 3 September 2014, 18:04.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                              Ten more mrv/CRV would be far cheaper and far more practical use
                              And how does their armour compare against the Scout SV, or the other modern projects?

                              Not arguing against more MRC/CRV.. just would see these offering something different to the DF.
                              Last edited by pym; 3 September 2014, 18:04.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by pym View Post
                                And how does their armour compare with the Scout SV, or the other modern projects?

                                quite well, given that the SV won't be around till 2020 at the earliest while the mrv/crv is in service today.

                                the MRV/CRV and the rest of the mowag fleet can also be uparmoured, several projects ongoing with other customers at the moment,and plans for an upgrade here.

                                Comment

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