Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Scorpion replacment?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by pym View Post
    ...a tendering process...
    if such a purchace were genuinely 'an extra 30 on the production run' with the numbers just being tacked on the UK's support contract with GD, that would surely make a massive difference in price to a 'we'll have 30 of those, oh, and can you support it with spares and refurbs for the next 30 years' contract?

    pooling has got to be the way to go on this kind of stuff.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
      pooling has got to be the way to go on this kind of stuff.
      I agree, but I reckon by far the best chance the Scout has of seeing service with the DF, is if 300 are built as per contract, but the MOD only coughs up for 270. And there's some disturbance in the force, which means we can afford them.

      Beyond that... entering a strategic long term, joint military procurement with another nation... what's next.. Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

      Comment


      • Scout is to replace CVRT isn't it?

        It is largely based on ASCOD

        Comment


        • Scout is to replace CVRT isn't it?

          It is largely based on ASCOD

          Nearly UK£6 million each (we could probably get 2 uparmoured MOWAGs with a 105 for each one)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pym View Post
            And how does their armour compare against the Scout SV, or the other modern projects?

            Not arguing against more MRC/CRV.. just would see these offering something different to the DF.


            What real advance in capability do Scout sv offer exactly over the MRV and the CR, and LTAV in the case of some variants? If you think about it not that much really. About the same weapons or in the case of the RWS exactly the same, fewer dismounts, the same ability to carry smarts like GSR, | (which is what counts). Scout won't be around for another seven years (at least) while MRV and CRV are coming up for seven years in service, after all Scout has been on the boil in various guises since 1992. CVRT should have been replaced in 2004 after all; Scout has a rear door not a rear ramp which in this day and age makes little sense until you realise that it’s a pimped up ascod.

            Scout is heavy, about the same weight as a leopard 1 MBT. CRV is essentially the Stryker RV, so lots of other users around, and lots of potential for growth, and plenty of doctrine being written that the DF can learn from. All around for istar in peace enforcement missions, which is what the DF actually do, MRV/CRV win hands down, better in urban areas, greater strategic mobility, better on roads, less threatening profile but good protection and mobility and the 30mm on the MRV is the best weapon in its class .
            Despite the hate for the DF that some posters have, is reality they got a lot right with the mowag, more right than wrong in fact, and compared to the mess that the British have made of their AFV procurement over the past two decades, any problems we have with the mowag have been hapenny in comparison.

            Joint procurement is actually one of the key things identified in the green paper, and I believe will be a key feature in the white paper. But then again if we are going to go into joint procurement, then we should focus on EU battle groups, which is where we’re going to be at over the next decade. In particular developing links with the Germans and the Nordics as procurement partner makes sense as they make great gear, and standardising equipment with them would bring benefits. No point in standardising with the British, whom in 2017 will probably be outside the EU.

            And you’re forgetting the cost; Scout costs 6 million apiece, so 30 of them would be 180 million.

            Now if I was in charge I’d
            Upgrade the command and APC variant mowags with a RWS (as is already planned.) Upgrade mine protection to a similar standard to the Canadian lav 25 upgrade.

            Take the existing ambulances and repair variant mowags and refit the three of them as repair variants

            Buy six new ambulance variants of the mowag with a higher roof over the treatment area to assist in dealing with casualties.

            Buy 4 more MRV and 6 more CRV to complement the existing fleet.

            Would cost a hell of a lot less than 180 million but would be of far more use, and would offer more to existing and future missions than any amount of Scout SV.

            One real advantage that Scout would have is its ability to mount a heavy weapon, 105/120mm cannon and a direct fire variant has been proposed. But none of them have been ordered by the brtisih and if there was a requirement to replace the scorpions with something like that then there are other competiitors on the market who are just as good and significantly cheaper.
            Last edited by paul g; 3 September 2014, 19:47.

            Comment


            • To be honest, I was under the (mistaken) impression that the Scout offered much better protection to the crew than the Mowags could & would also be a better platform for heavier support weapons. I take your point that the British haven't gone down that road and there are other options out there.

              I had envisaged it as something that could be deployed with Mowags, rather than a replacement - a more threatening profile and a bigger gun can be an asset.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pym View Post
                To be honest, I was under the (mistaken) impression that the Scout offered much better protection to the crew than the Mowags could & would also be a better platform for heavier support weapons. I take your point that the British haven't gone down that road and there are other options out there.

                I had envisaged it as something that could be deployed with Mowags, rather than a replacement - a more threatening profile and a bigger gun can be an asset.
                hey pym,

                At the moment the mowag offers far more protection, after all its actually exists. Crew protection can and will be upgraded so by 2021 when scout sv is available than the mowag will have been through its mid life upgrade.

                The Scout will better at wortking with units equipped with MBT and IFV, and thats the brits doctrine. But for our doctrine the MRV/CRV is better. ,have a look at the NBG ortbat posted in the overseas section and the september 2012 copy of an cosantoir about the istar company. Thats the type of unit that the Df will be working with in the future and MRV CRV fits in better there.

                As for a big gun, does it offer that much? The americans originally planned 27 105mm equiped strykers for their brigades, but experience in iraq and Afghanistan along with the technical difficulty of sticking a 105mm on a chassis as small as the stryker have led them to cut that number to 10. What they found was that often the target is five lads with aks or lee enfields in an urban area a 105mm round is overkill. Scout from the outset was deisgned to take a 120mm turret to provide a replacement for the Challenger, but none were ordered and none are likely to be. Again, in all their years in Afghanistan the british didn;t deploy a single MBT>

                Instead the anmericans going to use 30mm to support infantry units instead. Scout is an intresting vehicle, but i think the French Project scorpion and what ever the germans get to replace their wiesels might be of more intrest to the DF.
                Last edited by paul g; 3 September 2014, 20:32.

                Comment


                • The most important difference between Scout SV and vehicles like the fantastic Mowag is Scouts intended role. You can't compare the two in any way. The 589 Scout SV platforms will be replacing the army’s existing force of CVR(T) Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance (Tracked) vehicles, which have given fantastic service for the past 40 years all over the world, the Scout SV will be built to provide 9 different roles, similar to those roles carried out by CVR(T). Scout SV is a simple replacement for CVR(T) in the Armoured Cavalry reconnaissance role within the Armoured Infantry Brigade structure working alongside Challenger 2 equipped tank squadrons and Warrior equipped infantry battalions. All heavy tracked armour. The search for a CVR(T) and FV430 replacement began a few decades back with the criteria very clearly laid down, (it is not a UOR vehicle but its development during the Iraq/Afghan wars will have influenced designers hugely) and will form an integral part of the "Army 2020" Armoured Infantry Brigade. Those vehicles that were purchased under UOR will be re-rolled in various protected mobility formations with medium and light battalions.

                  The 7 million pound sterling Scout is certainly more than just a modern CVR(T). It's significantly larger, heavier, better protected, armed and endowed with sensors and communications equipment that were not possible in the smaller CVR(T). The Army has traded the small and agile CVR(T) for the big beast that is Scout, a clear movement in the mobility, firepower, protection triangular scale towards protection.

                  The new vehicle will give the army enhanced intelligence, surveillance, protection, target acquisition and reconnaissance capabilities, and it will be able to defend itself with highly effective 40mm cannon and RWS's. It was not intended to carry anything larger than a 40mm and was never intended to replace anything other than CVR(T) and FV 430 and certainly not as a replacement for Challenger. The only mention of "big guns" was in relation to possible future variants such as a light-tank with a 120mm direct fire gun and turret, a bridge layer, ambulance and Overwatch missile defence system to name a few. Long long way off and to support the new fleet rather than replace any MBT's etc.

                  Deliveries of Scout are planned to start in 2017. The training establishment and first squadron will be equipped by mid-2019 to allow conversion to begin with a brigade ready to deploy from the end of 2020.

                  Breakdown of the 589 as follows:

                  Scout, with 40mm turret and 3 crew, QTY 245:
                  198 Reconnaissance
                  23 Joint Fire Control for the forward observers
                  24 Ground Based Surveillance with man portable radar

                  Protected Mobility Recce Support, with Kongsberg protector RWS, 2 crew and 4 passengers, QTY 256:
                  59 Armoured Personnel Carrier (APC)
                  112 Command and Control
                  34 Formation Reconnaissance Overwatch
                  51 Engineer Reconnaissance

                  Engineering Variants, with Kongsberg RWS, QTY 88
                  38 Recovery (3 crew)
                  50 Repair (4 crew)




                  Couple of pic's and drawings and shite.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by FMP; 4 September 2014, 10:46.
                  We travel not for trafficking alone,
                  By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                  For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                  We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                  Comment


                  • RF: The above.

                    Prime Minister David Cameron said: “I’m delighted that on the eve of the NATO Summit, we can announce the biggest single contract for AFVs for the British Army since the 1980s. These new vehicles are testament to the world class engineering skills in South Wales and across the UK, helping to create the Army’s first fully digitalised armoured vehicles. Not only will they be crucial in helping to keep Britain safe, they will also underpin nearly 1,300 jobs across the UK and showcase the strength of the UK’s highly skilled defence sector. With the second largest defence budget in NATO, meeting NATO’s two per cent of GDP spending target and investing in new capabilities to deal with the emerging threats we are ensuring Britain’s national security, staying at the forefront of the global race and providing leadership within NATO.”

                    Secretary of State for Defence Michael Fallon MP said: “Today’s multi-billion pound contract is fantastic news for our soldiers in providing them with the most technologically advanced and versatile AFVs to overcome future threats. This is the biggest single order placed by the MoD for armoured vehicles for around 30 years and is an important part of the investment we are making to keep Britain safe. It is also excellent news for the supply chain of this state-of-the-art vehicle and will sustain 1,300 engineering jobs across the UK in key defence industries.”

                    Kevin Connell, Vice President General Dynamics UK – Land Systems, said: “We are delighted that the UK MoD has awarded us this important contract. SCOUT SV provides essential capability to the British Army to allow it to dominate the battle space for years to come and it secures thousands of jobs right across the UK for at least the next decade. General Dynamics UK and our partners have worked hard over the last four years to develop a world-leading vehicle, and we will maintain that same work ethic to deliver 589 SCOUT SV platforms to the British Army on-time and on-budget.”
                    We travel not for trafficking alone,
                    By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                    For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                    We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                    Comment


                    • So..what happened to 'Warrior' ?
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                        So..what happened to 'Warrior' ?
                        Pretty sure the Warriors will have to soldier on via this Sustainment program?



                        Also here is the new Weapon System for the Scout SV, looks quite impressive for light armor!

                        "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your coffee." - Lady Astor....
                        ''Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it'' - Winston Churchill

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                          So..what happened to 'Warrior' ?
                          Will undergo upgrades in time for Army 2020 and then soldier on within the Armoured Infantry Brigade as the 2 x Armoured Infantry Battalions war horse.

                          A series of big money contracts have been signed as the Army's Warrior upgrade edges closer.The MOD wants the Warrior to remain the backbone of the Army for ...


                          Brigade orbat attached showing where Warrior will fit in.
                          Attached Files
                          We travel not for trafficking alone,
                          By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                          For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                          We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                          Comment


                          • Looks from the UNDOF as if the AML90/Scorpion should be replaced and deployed (having said that the MRV hasn't been deployed)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              Looks from the UNDOF as if the AML90/Scorpion should be replaced and deployed (having said that the MRV hasn't been deployed)
                              Huh? The AML90 and Scorpion should be replaced yes, but the could not be deployed to UNDOF as they'd breach the mandate.
                              What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                              Comment


                              • Saw this link over on Arrse...it is an article about the development of the CVRT family of vehicles.

                                'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X