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  • Scorpion replacment?

    Should we replace it? Really it's only a training tool and a token force.Should we forget tracked vehicles or go for a full MBT
    Last edited by 315; 4 October 2014, 18:20.

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    • Maybe an upgrade. The Scorpions in my view where a half hearted project to create a armoured regiment. There capability has never been fully been got out of them since the necessary supporting vehicle's have never been purchased. If the sultan's Spartan's Samaritan's had been purchased to complete the purchased maybe more people would have a positive view on them.

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      • It says on Wikipedia that there is a light tank variant of the CV 90 with a 120mm gun would something like this be worth considering.

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        • Originally posted by 315 View Post
          It says on Wikipedia that there is a light tank variant of the CV 90 with a 120mm gun would something like this be worth considering.
          Yeah the CV 90 has been mentioned a lot when talking about a replacement for the scorpion. The swedes use it AFAIK. The brits have went for the Scout SV family of vehicles (which should include a replacement for the scorpion).

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          • Sweden does not use the 120mm version only 20 has of yet been produced and no country has adopted it. The ASCOD witch the Scout SV is based has a 105mm light tank version also.

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            • Do you know more about the scout SV? I can not find much information on it.

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              • Originally posted by 315 View Post
                Do you know more about the scout SV? I can not find much information on it.
                Link to a fantastic series of papers on Think Defense UK.



                Put the kettle on (a few times) sit back and read. Goes back to the 60's and progresses to the final painful birth of Scout SV. Charters the highs and lows, the ins and outs, the ups and downs, the blood, sweat and tears, the shocking amount of money thrown at FRES, where they got it very right, where it went badly wrong and finally where Scout SV / FRES is today. Yes it has (will) produced a great family of vehicles, but it will be replacing a fantastic family of vehicles with an eye-watering amount of expenditure.

                Its well worth the few hours it will take to read.

                Or you could watch a rather shit video on the PMRS. My advice, read the papers. There are plenty of pictures and video as well.



                Artwork: Protected Mobility Reconnaissance Support.



                Artwork: Scout.



                Artwork: Command.



                Artwork: Engineer Reconnaissance.



                Artwork: Recovery.



                Artwork: Repair.



                In a nutshell:

                Scout specialist vehicle will be built in 6 variants to provide 9 different roles:
                • Reconnaissance; including ground-based surveillance and joint fire control specialist capabilities
                • Equipment and support repair; repairing and towing damaged vehicles
                • Equipment and support recovery; recovering damaged vehicles
                • Command and control; providing a mobile battlefield headquarters
                • Protected mobility reconnaissance support, including formation reconnaissance overwatch and engineer reconnaissance; delivering and supporting specialist troops across the battlefield
                • Engineer reconnaissance; carrying specialist engineering equipment and personnel

                Broken down as follows:

                Scout variants, with 40mm turret and 3 crew, QTY 245 broken down into 3 sub variants:
                • 198 Reconnaissance and Strike
                • 23 Joint Fire Control for the forward observers
                • 24 Ground Based Surveillance with man portable radar

                Protected Mobility Recce Support variants, with Kongsberg protector RWS, 2 crew and 4 passengers, QTY 256, broken down into 4 sub variants:
                • 59 Armoured Personnel Carrier (APC)
                • 112 Command and Control
                • 34 Formation Reconnaissance Overwatch
                • 51 Engineer Reconnaissance (3 crew and no passengers but specialist equipment?)

                Engineering Variants, with Kongsberg RWS, QTY 88, 2 sub variants:
                • 38 Recovery (3 crew plus an extra seat)
                • 50 Repair (4 crew)

                Deliveries of Scout specialist vehicles are planned to start in 2017. The training establishment and first squadron will be equipped by mid-2019 to allow conversion to begin with a brigade ready to deploy from the end of 2020.

                Cost: GBP 3.5bn.

                How many zeros in that?
                Last edited by FMP; 26 November 2014, 13:01.
                We travel not for trafficking alone,
                By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

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                • scrap the scorpions. they are unsuitable for overseas, if they haven't left the country yet they never will.

                  no point spending money on any platform that doesn't have a real, significant capability role these days.

                  the arguement that it maintains a tracked capability or knowledge base for the DF is a load of waffle and hasn't rung true for decades now. adoption of the P111 fleet has effectively killed off that notion in relistic terms.

                  better to put scorpion budget into maintaining or expanding P111 fleet (there are plenty of cars needing serious TLC now). or in a more strategic outlook, put the cash into mobile, armoured arty units that are as protected as inf and cav now and can keep up with the other corps. not saying we start buying 155 SP guns, but there's plenty of 120mm mortor systems, etc. available in armoured platforms. unlimbering trailers, setting up, firing, re-mounting soft skinned vehicles all very good but very unprotected and a bit antiquated for the type of ops we are likely to be/have been involved in.
                  An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                  • Set up a plant in Ireland to fix the vehicle snags; gearboxes and undercarriage are not beyond the wit of Irish mechs. It creates jobs, increases availability and unblocks the supply chain.......the ordinary mortar is in lieu of heavy guns. 105s and 120s instead of 155s. the 105 needs to be brought overseas or else it just becomes another ornament like the 25 pdrs.

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                    • Why are the scorps even still in service? Its safe to say they are Older than almost everyone in the defence forces now, apart from a handful of colonels and above. The war they were designed for has been fought long ago.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                      • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                        Set up a plant in Ireland to fix the vehicle snags; gearboxes and undercarriage are not beyond the wit of Irish mechs. It creates jobs, increases availability and unblocks the supply chain.......the ordinary mortar is in lieu of heavy guns. 105s and 120s instead of 155s. the 105 needs to be brought overseas or else it just becomes another ornament like the 25 pdrs.
                        It wouldn't be a sustainable business due to the small size of the fleet.

                        The facilities, equipment, spares and personnel should all be in the DF. But 1 or more is obviously an issue.

                        Maybe the MLU will fix the issue or they should get MOWAG personnel over.


                        Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                        Why are the scorps even still in service? Its safe to say they are Older than almost everyone in the defence forces now, apart from a handful of colonels and above. The war they were designed for has been fought long ago.
                        It is easier to look for a replacement (finance wise)?

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                        • Why not? a facility overhauling drivetrain equipment like gearboxes and so on would have applications for more than just Mowags. If the DF's own facilities/manpower can't do it, then it should be farmed out. there are already heavy vehicle overhauls conducted in Ireland. You could do all of that kind of work on this island already. There's nothing on a Mowag that any competent heavy vehicle fitter couldn't deal with, nor any competent avionic/vehicle electrician couldn't deal with. Remember, just because it has a coat of green paint and lives in a big green can, it's designed to be operated by average soldiers. This stuff is not beyond the reach of existing abilities in Ireland.

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                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            Remember, just because it has a coat of green paint and lives in a big green can, it's designed to be operated by average soldiers. This stuff is not beyond the reach of existing abilities in Ireland.
                            But would such repairs and overhauls be done the "Army" way, or would the civvies hired in need to do the Army course before being able to touch a Mowag. I agree with what you are saying, but in my experience, if you didn't get a qualification through the DF, then the DF do not want to know about it. I stand open to correction, but personally, I have seen people who are qualified as Paramedics unable to administer first aid in the RDF, civvie gym instructor with the same UL cert as the DF counterparts not allowed to warm up a body of troops for a run. /rant
                            What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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                            • Then you do what happens with the aircraft and you farm the job out entirely, keep the Army "Union rules, Bud" attitude away from the job in hand. The notion that the "Army" way is always the most correct or efficient way of doing things is a fallacy.......going back in time, the armour of the Emergency was built by civvies in Carlow and all branches of the DF have relied on supplier/manufacturer civilian technical help since day 1, so the notion of using civvies or civilian methods is not new. Empire builders preventing a learning culture is also not new.

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                              • Timoney Technology. sounds like a contender. Private sector methods and work practices, may shame/force "them" into removing the Corpo work ethic amongst there staff.
                                Last edited by sofa; 27 November 2014, 20:28.

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