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  • #61
    " have not read of any such observations, yes there may well have been other elements of that conflict where they could have been used and were not. This may be due to a number of variables: Cautious commander etc. Lessons are learned, expierence is gained."

    Was referred to in Marshall Cavendishes Falklands war published in 82. It also acknowledges that the force commander was unsure what to do with the actual vehicles and hence deployed them to fire support roles.

    The wheeled option in Liberia is the most cost effective one due to low life and levels of spares available.

    As per used in accessible areas in Rhodesia.....in the recce role...adversly to your comment

    "Ride up to assy area leave the horses and advance to contact?Noise discipline..loss of the element of surprise before it gets "noisy" with arty fire.Many many more considerations that would need to be taken into account.Thats another topic."

    "
    These vehicles were a HUGE force multiplier"

    Eight vehicles could hardly be quantified as a huge force multiplier when you have deployed against twice your strength 7 thousand miles from home .

    "
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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    • #62
      The above mentioned reference dedicates one paragraph to the deployment of armour during the Falklands war and attritubutes its individual action as purely fire support operation..and taxiing....and not as the vehicles( Scimitars included) were employed for.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • #63
        Eight vehicles could hardly be quantified as a huge force multiplier when you have deployed against twice your strength 7 thousand miles from home .
        Yes they can when employed with all other all arms i.e combined arms operations and they did.

        The above mentioned reference dedicates one paragraph to the deployment of armour during the Falklands war and attritubutes its individual action as purely fire support operation..and taxiing....and not as the vehicles( Scimitars included) were employed for.
        This publication is by no means the gospel on the conflict, the author is giving his view in hindsight.
        The vehicles were employed effectively for that phase of operations. The commander used his asset as he seen fit. as I have mentioned previously yes they may have been used for other roles and may have proved very effective. Mines fields, Argentine anti-armour capabilites coupled with terrain issues, the field commander would have to have to paid close attention to these considerations.

        As per used in accessible areas in Rhodesia.....in the recce role...adversly to your comment
        Rhodesia was counter Insurgency (COIN), the Sealous Scouts were conducting COIN operations, Greys Scouts were a unit operating as a sub-unit, Mounted Infantry they were referred to as I believe. They operated as a tracker unit and guided in stronger forces once a terrorist unit was located.Horse have their place on the battlefield under certain conditions in certain conflicts. The Falklands was High Intensity conflict, different ballgame. ** Gone off topic there ..apologies..**

        The wheeled option in Liberia is the most cost effective one due to low life and levels of spares available.
        Focus here...cost effective...(in your opinion) may not be the most suitable though.


        We have also drifted off topic from Falklands war to battlefield employment of Horses. Back to the main topic I say.
        Last edited by HE_Load; 16 February 2006, 16:16.

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        • #64
          Which was the up grade of scorpions.....interesting discussion though.

          The Marshall cavendish publication was the most recent after the cessation of hostilities and is in my opinion one of the most generally comprehensive works available. Other works focusssed on individual aspects. This one gave a good over view.

          See as you know your stuff in depth and are well able to back up your opinions......whats next.....

          Welcome BTW.
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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          • #65
            See as you know your stuff in depth and are well able to back up your opinions......whats next.....

            Welcome BTW.
            Thank's Harmon. Great to see an individual capable of intelligent discussion. Long live CVR(T) i say!
            Last edited by HE_Load; 16 February 2006, 16:34.

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            • #66
              Horses schmorses! What about the rebuild for the Scorpions?

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              • #67
                If you've got the only tank around, it doesn't matter if it's not a particularly capable one. It's very scary, and is capable of killing lots of the enemy.

                Part of the reason the Scorps weren't used much until the end was also that a lot of the battles were within range of the warships which provided NGS, far more effective than the odd 76mm or 30mm round.

                I believe you'll find that the ninth CVR(T) was a Sampson (Recovery vehicle) not a Sultan (command vehicle)

                NTM
                Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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                • #68
                  What about the rebuild for the Scorpions?
                  I'll defer to someone more knowledgeable here, but I understand that subject is still up in the air, and no decision has been made. A large number of proposals have been in the frame, ranging from the minimal to the radical.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Harmon Rabb
                    Having just checked it out..there was a total of 4 scorpions and 4 scimitars and 1 sultan deployed to the falklands. These were split into two troops..of two types per troop.........and the troop was comanded by LT Ian Jones.
                    2 troops from B Sqn, the Blues and Royals were involved attached to 3 Cmdo Bde. Each Troop had 2 Scorpions and 2 Scimitars. A Samson recovery vehicle was also deployed. 3 troop was commanded by Lt Mark Coreth and 4 troop by Lt Lord Robin Inness-Ker.

                    During the San Carlos landing, Scorpions and Scimitars were transported in LCUs in the initial landings with their guns trained over the ramps in an effort to provide extra fire support to the landings. Scimitars also successfully engaged Agentinian planes later in the campaign

                    The unit suffered greatly from the fact that it was commanded by a Lt and had no more senior rank in what was basically an Infantry Bde. 3 Commando officers were unsure as to how to use them and were not sure that they were of any use at all in the Falklands Terrain. The biggest attack that they were involved in was 2 Paras attack on Wireless ridge where 4 troop provided fire support. While they were initially only supposed to provide support during the initial part of the attack, They proved immensely useful as they were able to see their targets using NVE and provided extremely accurate direct fire at all times to the Paras. As the battle progressed, the troop was actually able, despite predictions to the contrary, to make it all the way up the first summit and provided fire support throughout D Coy, 2 paras attack on the main ridge. Such was 2 Paras love of the Troop for the support that was given that they were given the honour of leading 2 Para into Port Stanley flying the Regimental flag. However it is noted that the Paras love of the Troop also came from the fact that they transported many weary troops across the formidable terrain.

                    The Blues and Royals were also involved in 3 Paras attack on Mount Longdon and The Scots Guards attack on Tumbledown. Here they launched a diversionary attack past Mount William towards Port Stanly supported by a Recce Pl of the Scot Guards. The attack is reputed to have cause consternation in Stanley as Argentian troops rushed to defend against an armoured assault into Stanley that never came thereby successfully pulling away troops that could otherwise have been used to reinforce Mt Tumbledown.

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                    • #70
                      Saw an BBC interview with Julian Thomson , who was I think the field commander in the Falklands War, he was asked what in hindsight he would have done differently. His answer was that he would have used the Scorpions more widely as he underestimated their usefulness.

                      He is not alone in that , we all do it, The rough terrain crossing ability of those AFVs is truely astonishing.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Harmon Rabb
                        Greys Scouts being the unit in Rhodesia
                        They are the boys I was on about I got onto my aunt, she said they were used a lot to track the terrs(her words not mine) once they found them they called in the Fireforces(para's or heli borne troops that seriously ****ed up the bad guys). Off topic I know.
                        Lifes a bitch, so be her pimp!

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                        • #72
                          Have the claims of effeciveness of the Scimitars vs Aircraft in the Falklands actually been verified? Or is it just a bit of a brag by the crews? I'm having some difficulty in accepting that a hand-fed (and hand-cranked) cannon with all of six rounds in it, could be a viable weapon against anything that wasn't headed directly for it.

                          NTM
                          Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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                          • #73
                            Hi Cal et al
                            The story goes that the Scimitar Gunner was looking thru his sight and suddenly saw the arse-end of a Skyhawk and simply fired.One round went up the tailpipe and blew the back end of the turbine to pieces.The pilot realised his engine was useless and ejected and was taken alive.I'm sure this can be traced and confirmed.
                            GttC

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                            • #74
                              I emailed the Bovington Tank Museum re my query about a Scorpion v Panhard engagement. They say it did'nt happen, apologios !!!

                              I thought I had read somewhere that a brief contact occurred, with no hits on either side. Wrong again.
                              'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                              • #75
                                The two units might have met each other. Apparently the AML crews grabbed their submachineguns and attempted a dismounted attack for some reason.

                                NTM
                                Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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