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  • #91
    Originally posted by Tempest View Post
    After the next hull, does anyone see any merit in going second hand and making a massive leap in capability and looking at 1 or 2 used frigates for about the same money? No EU fundinfunding to help, of course, and much higher running costs, but getting a serious building block. Worth it, or over-kill? And why?
    Second hand could be already well worn and generally a frigate would have at least 3 times the crew of a PV (even if we manned it leanly, you could say the crew would be much bigger)

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    • #92
      How about we get the MPV first then argue for a corvette for escort.
      Because you're trying to motivate for a warship, not a patrol vessel
      Last edited by expat01; 1 December 2014, 12:19.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Tempest View Post
        After the next hull, does anyone see any merit in going second hand and making a massive leap in capability and looking at 1 or 2 used frigates for about the same money? No EU fundinfunding to help, of course, and much higher running costs, but getting a serious building block. Worth it, or over-kill? And why?
        Why would we need frigates?
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Tempest View Post
          After the next hull, does anyone see any merit in going second hand and making a massive leap in capability and looking at 1 or 2 used frigates for about the same money? No EU fundinfunding to help, of course, and much higher running costs, but getting a serious building block. Worth it, or over-kill? And why?

          Sorry to say but see no merit in this for much same reason that Cav dont need MBTs.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by danno View Post
            Sorry to say but see no merit in this for much same reason that Cav dont need MBTs.
            I'd like to see the reason behing the idea.

            Bear in mind the UKRN are building OPVs to reduce their dependency on frigates.

            What could a frigate do in the current environment that a specificallydesigned OPV couldn't?

            Again bear in mind most navies are screaming to get purpose designed OPVs as opposed to having to use more expensive frigates to carry out taskings more suited to OPVs.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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            • #96
              The only reason we would get frigates would be to participate in more "warlike" ops

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              • #97
                Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                ...current...
                this is the critical word. frigates/other high-end stuff have no place in current Irish defence and foreign policy, but navies aren't bought for what you need this week, they are bought for 30/35 years, and they have to be able to provide as much relevent service 3 weeks before they get laid up as they do 3 weeks after they enter service.

                its a familiar story - how many on this board would, in 1980, have predicted that in 2014 Irish troops would have spent 10 years in Afghanistan as part of a NATO force, or that a joint Irish/UK team would be training the Malian Army, or that the Soviet Union would have disappeared only to re-emerge in the shape of Russia and park its tanks on half of Ukraine?

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                • #98
                  his is the critical word. frigates/other high-end stuff have no place in current Irish defence and foreign policy, but navies aren't bought for what you need this week, they are bought for 30/35 years, and they have to be able to provide as much relevent service 3 weeks before they get laid up as they do 3 weeks after they enter service.
                  Ah yes but we need the vessels for today..now...

                  Frigates carry out some very specific rules such as anti submarine and anti air ops,, none of which we have a requirement for other than what the Naval SErvice currently provide.

                  1x Frigate would possibly exhaust the NS budget for running costs for a year and suck in as many people to crew it as we have at sean between the P50s and P60. In the current environment of lean manning and multitask OPVs lets just say its a pipe dream.

                  The NS have far more short term requirements to be funded and given how tight funding is, lets just say its never going to be entertained as an option.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                    Ah yes but we need the vessels for today..now...

                    Frigates carry out some very specific rules such as anti submarine and anti air ops,, none of which we have a requirement for other than what the Naval SErvice currently provide.

                    1x Frigate would possibly exhaust the NS budget for running costs for a year and suck in as many people to crew it as we have at sean between the P50s and P60. In the current environment of lean manning and multitask OPVs lets just say its a pipe dream.

                    The NS have far more short term requirements to be funded and given how tight funding is, lets just say its never going to be entertained as an option.
                    +1

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                    • It is far easier to adapt an offshore patrol vessel to do a Frigate task, when required than to have a frigate do an OPV task. Try to imagine, for example, a type 23 Frigate being involved in Salmon Patrols in Kenmare bay.
                      Its much easier you'll find to modify an OPV to do ASW.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                        It is far easier to adapt an offshore patrol vessel to do a Frigate task, when required than to have a frigate do an OPV task. Try to imagine, for example, a type 23 Frigate being involved in Salmon Patrols in Kenmare bay.
                        Its much easier you'll find to modify an OPV to do ASW.
                        i wouldn't disagree with you - but modifying needs space, and despite (as GF never used to tire of saying) steel being cheap and air being free, the Beckett class don't appear to have much in the way of growth room.

                        they are superb boats for the tasks allotted to them today - no question - but if its decided in 15 years that they need an ASW or Mine clearance suite, a point defence SAM system or an embarked helicopter, then where would they go?

                        would the SB class being stretched out to 3000 tons - corvette size - but fitted with OPV suite for current operations, really have cost that much more or imposed any greater crewing/training/peerformance burden on the NS?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                          i wouldn't disagree with you - but modifying needs space, and despite (as GF never used to tire of saying) steel being cheap and air being free, the Beckett class don't appear to have much in the way of growth room.

                          they are superb boats for the tasks allotted to them today - no question - but if its decided in 15 years that they need an ASW or Mine clearance suite, a point defence SAM system or an embarked helicopter, then where would they go?

                          would the SB class being stretched out to 3000 tons - corvette size - but fitted with OPV suite for current operations, really have cost that much more or imposed any greater crewing/training/peerformance burden on the NS?
                          Well forget the helicopter obviously - but to my landlubbing eyes, I reckon one could fit a quality radar, passive countermeasures, CIWS, sonar array & additional EO sensors to the P60's.

                          But considering you could pretty much get another P60 (or a load of Mowags or LTAVs) for the cost of CIWS & radar, or sonar array... short of an economic miracle, it's difficult to see how it could ever happen.

                          If the EPV ever happens, perhaps in stretched P60 form - that's pretty much what you're talking about. But again, the expense of upgrading it to anything like a frigate is eye watering.
                          Last edited by pym; 2 December 2014, 23:33.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                            would the SB class being stretched out to 3000 tons - corvette size - but fitted with OPV suite for current operations, really have cost that much more or imposed any greater crewing/training/peerformance burden on the NS?
                            Well the built cost of the EPV was budgeted to be around €100 million (for 1), ie around the same as the 2 new OPVs

                            Comment


                            • i wouldn't disagree with you - but modifying needs space, and despite (as GF never used to tire of saying) steel being cheap and air being free, the Beckett class don't appear to have much in the way of growth room.
                              They do have qute a lot of redundancy so if required it can be used.

                              I reckon one could fit a quality radar, passive countermeasures, CIWS, sonar array & additional EO sensors to the P60's.

                              Probably could witha little reworking and rewiring.

                              but if its decided in 15 years that they need an ASW or Mine clearance suite, a point defence SAM system or an embarked helicopter, then where would they go?
                              Mine clearance is a specfic task which requires a specialist ship....the others ..I'm afraid are just pure Waltering.

                              they are superb boats for the tasks allotted to them today
                              SHIPs....ships carry boats but boats cannot carry ships!
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Well the built cost of the EPV was budgeted to be around €100 million (for 1), ie around the same as the 2 new OPVs
                                Was ever a fresh used ferry ever considered (not the David F type) .It would not obvously be built to naval spec with seperate engine/gen rooms etc but would tick a few boxes in that it would not be expensive,would not need a large crew,could carry overseas army units with plant and vehicles,replenishment of same,act as hosp/base etc for humanitarian missions have a fair turn of speed .

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