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  • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Depends on your point of view as to how facetious it might be, the RAF have retired their MPA and have no replacement in sight, but these could all be facetious arguments, we are not going to double or treble our defence budget.

    If there were to be an increase what areas would we see the most "bang for our buck". My contention is that trying to have an embryonic air defence capability or Anti-submarine for that mater would be a waste of money and would only end up being window dressing.
    The RAF were stretched tracking the Russian's how could our theoretical sqdn of Gripens cope, could you provide 2 aircraft on 24hr QRA out of fleet of 12 and still have sufficient aircraft and flying hours available to keep 20 odd pilots combat ready. It would be huge ask of 12 aircraft and would provide little or no capability for exercises etc they would be a very one dimensional sqdn with a bunch of pilots sitting alert for the entire careers. The return is quite limited in my view, likewise countering the Submarine threat would be another huge undertaking.

    I keep beating the same drum, but IMHO the future of the AC should lie in Air Transport and in Helicopters providing support to ground forces in an overseas role. I believe these are achievable and quantifiable ambitions that would provide a real sharp edge to the AC both at home and hopefully overseas, they will require significant finance and in the current view of replacing the C-172 its hard to gauge how likely any expansion of the AC's roles might be.
    I actually agree with you.

    What I'm trying to put forward is my opinion that Ireland doesn't operate in a vacuum - so there are basic steps we can take, which would cost a fraction of the cost of operating our own fighter aircraft, but which would fundamentally improve our position.

    A lot of these are steps which would have to be taken, in order to operate fighter aircraft effectively - they couldn't be achieved overnight & would require some investment of time and effort, yet some folks advocating the purchase of Gripens & L159's have totally glossed over them - or worse, said they could be dealt with afterwards.

    They would improve our importance and our bargaining position - and as a result of that, other things like air transport/helicopter acquisition may be possible on more favorable terms. Quid pro quo.
    Last edited by pym; 21 February 2015, 16:55.

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    • @C252, much as I would like to agree with you on the need to make the Don fit for overseas duty, the reality is that the Don deployed to the Border for thirty years, had a brief foray into Sligo and now reaches the outpost that is Athlone and are as tied to the apron-strings as they ever were. Any time there was a tech snag, the aircraft was grounded until parts and techs were flown up at great expense and the snag fixed or the aircraft made fit enough to fly home. They have never deployed anywhere for longer than a few days and have never operated under true field conditions or conducted anything but the most basic of maintenance in the field. Field conditions have only ever been employed when retrieving wrecks, which hardly qualifies as institutional learning. Donners that actually deploy overseas do so in any role but that which they were originally trained for, so the Don learns nothing new about it's day job; ie, keeping aircraft flying under field conditions. The logic that expensively trained techs and pilots should go to the Lebanon and serve as waiters or as Orderly Officers is beyond sense. To be able to deploy to the kind of conditions prevailing in Chad or Liberia or anywhere else means that AC personnel should carry out exchange visits with European armies and see how they operate helicopters in the field; ie, actual techs doing actual tech work in the field and not just reading the grafitti in the jax in Naqoura............apart from that, how does the DF pass on operational lessons learned to the troops?

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      • Originally posted by pym View Post
        I actually agree with you.

        What I'm trying to put forward is my opinion that Ireland doesn't operate in a vacuum - so there are basic steps we can take, which would cost a fraction of the cost of operating our own fighter aircraft, but which would fundamentally improve our position.

        A lot of these are steps which would have to be taken, in order to operate fighter aircraft effectively - they couldn't be achieved overnight & would require some investment of time and effort, yet some folks advocating the purchase of Gripens & L159's have totally glossed over them - or worse, said they could be dealt with afterwards.

        They would improve our importance and our bargaining position - and as a result of that, other things like air transport/helicopter acquisition may be possible on more favorable terms. Quid pro quo.
        I think what you and Charlie 252 are saying in a roundabout way is that Ireland should join NATO...
        Last edited by Flamingo; 21 February 2015, 21:59.
        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
          I think what you and Charlie 252 are saying in a roundabout way is that Ireland should join NATO...
          Not quite - the Swedes made plenty of agreements with individual Nato members, when they were mutually beneficial.

          I'm sure we could do the same if we put our mind to it.

          Comment


          • Reading this thread I think most agree on two things, firstly, we should have at least a limited form of manned air defence, and secondly, there is little chance of the government authorizing it.

            However, assuming a miracle and the government goes mad, we should ask what we really expect our "new" AD aircraft to be, do we want an air superiority aircraft, or do we want an "air policing" aircraft? Personally while I would like to see the Gripen being acquired, realistically in the current financial situation, I do believe that ex-Swiss AF F-5Es are a more realistic option.

            These would perform an air policing task admirably, and looking at the Swiss Air Force site http://www.lw.admin.ch/internet/luft...aft/tig5e.html it appears that conversion of AC pilots would not be such a major task, as these aircraft are mainly flown by militia pilots in Swiss service.

            Added to that, the fact that when the Swiss sold surplus F-5Es to the USN they charged approx. US$1.5 million each, and they have 12 available (the aircraft they leased short term to Austria), it seems an opportunity there for the taking.

            One further point, the USN immediately embarked upon an upgrade/refurbishment program costing approx. US$1 million per aircraft, see details here http://www.interfacedisplays.com/pdf...AAD_mag_09.pdf which apparently brought their avionics into the 21st century.

            This should give a good 10 years of AC service at which point, hopefully, the country will be in a better financial position, and the world will be a more secure place.
            Last edited by ias; 23 February 2015, 19:14.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ias View Post
              Reading this thread I think most agree on two things, firstly, we should have at least a limited form of manned air defence, and secondly, there is little chance of the government authorizing it.

              However, assuming a miracle and the government goes mad, we should ask what we really expect our "new" AD aircraft to be, do we want an air superiority aircraft, or do we want an "air policing" aircraft? Personally while I would like to see the Gripen being acquired, realistically in the current financial situation, I do believe that ex-Swiss AF F-5Es are a more realistic option.

              These would perform an air policing task admirably, and looking at the Swiss Air Force site http://www.lw.admin.ch/internet/luft...aft/tig5e.html it appears that conversion of AC pilots would not be such a major task, as these aircraft are mainly flown by militia pilots in Swiss service.

              Added to that, the fact that when the Swiss sold surplus F-5Es to the USN they charged approx. US$1.5 million each, and they have 12 available (the aircraft they leased short term to Austria), it seems an opportunity there for the taking.

              One further point, the USN immediately embarked upon an upgrade/refurbishment program costing approx. US$1 million per aircraft, see details here http://www.interfacedisplays.com/pdf...AAD_mag_09.pdf which apparently brought their avionics into the 21st century.

              This should give a good 10 years of AC service at which point, hopefully, the country will be in a better financial position, and the world will be a more secure place.

              I too have previously advocated ex-Swiss F-5's as a good option for the Air Corps. While some may argue that it is not suitable - being an older design - the link you posted above shows just how such F-5's could be upgraded/modernised......meaning a real-world policing/intercept aircraft for the AC for c.€3 million per airframe.
              IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

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              • Its a bit like the Malta debate. Yes it would be nice to have top of the range interceptor ideally suited to our needs, but we can't afford it. If we get a relatively modern, if old design, that does the job well, then why not?
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                • Maybe thats why the Swiss Air Force team 'Patrouille Suisse' are performing a display with their F-5's at this year's Bray Air Show (i.e. in the hope of selling some F-5's to the govt)


                  (For the record, it's was the 100th anniversary of the Swiss Air Force in 2014 and that might explain their rare appearance at a show outside of Switzerland/Germany/Austria)
                  Last edited by Silver; 25 February 2015, 01:40.
                  IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

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                  • Just brilliant....

                    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner
                    To be able to deploy to the kind of conditions prevailing in Chad or Liberia or anywhere else means that AC personnel should carry out exchange visits with European armies and see how they operate helicopters in the field; ie, actual techs doing actual tech work in the field and not just reading the grafitti in the jax in Naqoura...
                    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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                    • Haven't been following this thread at all but a non member of IMO has and sent me the following by email by way of a contribution to this topic:

                      "They are way off target at €1.5m for an F5. Low time aircraft, ie 500hrs remaining to overhaul, currently $3m for an F5E and $5m for an F5F. If they want an air defence radar fitted, Elta or Grifo, add another $2m per airframe. As IAC likely to buy Fs that $7m per airframe before support, logs and training."

                      These are factual figures for actual aircraft.

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                      • Gripen lease is STILL the way to go
                        "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                        "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                        • Meatbomb, thanks for the up to date figures, always good to have. Would your friend know anything about the radar, apparently the Swiss F-5Es have a different radar to other F-5s, the AN/APG-69, apparently it was more expensive so turned others off. How would it compare to say the Grifo-F or the Elta units?

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                          • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
                            Gripen lease is STILL the way to go
                            Is it a bit of a big (expensive) step? Given we have no working fast jet experience (since the Fouga-which is not really fast jet, more like jet powered glider). Better off starting with something prolific, with lots of other user expertise.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • Originally posted by ias View Post
                              Meatbomb, thanks for the up to date figures, always good to have. Would your friend know anything about the radar, apparently the Swiss F-5Es have a different radar to other F-5s, the AN/APG-69, apparently it was more expensive so turned others off. How would it compare to say the Grifo-F or the Elta units?
                              In comparison to modern radars it compares quite poorly. 30 year old technology. Fighter sized aircraft detection of 30nm only. The Grifo or Elta units offer only marginally better range. The problem with the F-5 is the dimension of the scanner is quite restricted. When operating over the horizon from land based radars, as would be typical on an intercept mission off our west coast, a capable modern radar is a must. Short range radars like Grifo and the AN/APG-69 are fine for areas with good military radar coverage(like Switzerland), where ground controlled intercepts all the way to the terminal phase would be the norm.

                              The F-5 would have been a good first step on the road to operating a fighter 15-20 years ago. Not now. It is old technology, of limited usefulness and probably unsupportable in 5-10 years time.

                              If you want something prolific, the only realistic alternative is an F-16MLU variant. However the Gripen is the superior option from most viewpoints, the most important of which would be the political one.

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                              • Please excuse the waltering here but is the following in any way possible? Sign a memorandum of understanding with the UK. Send pilots to RAF taring centre then lease some Typhoons from them? (Get the UK to subsidise the cost.) Obvious benefits to us but also very real benefits to the UK too. They get additional pilots trained to their standard based in Ireland with a faster reaction time to nasty Russian bears threatening the western approaches. AS things stand Irish airspace is in reality protected by the RAF with the UK taxpayer paying ALL of the cost. This way UK gets an increase in capability/airframes/personnel and doesnt have to pay ALL of the cost. Additional bonus is Mick Wallace and Clare Daly get to instantaneously explode in a fit of apoplectic rage when they hear the news :-) Win Win Win :-)

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