P63- Third OPV

[ancientmariner]

I have never seen one of their vessels in Cork Harbour. Or the Shannon Estuary either for that matter.

They have an assortment of craft including the offshore pilot craft type. They can get into trouble at vicious tidal corners in contrary winds and circumstances. However every fish caught has to be put into the supply chain which is shore based. Where is the shore based inspection process to cover the HOOK to the TABLE guarantee for wild salmon. All landings should be policed and time wasting or politically sensitive inspections should not be foisted on the Navy. A Minister famously told his fishing constituents " don't mind the Navy I'll look after it "

[DeV]

Not sure if I agree that the CPVs should be replaced by something similar or not. If they are to be replaced with CPVs or smaller then why do AGS, Revenue, IFI, etc all have a remit and small seagoing vessels?

Resource the NS properly, and with legislation, they could take over all seagoing roles.

To do that the NS would need around 4 fast (30+ kts capable), all weather CPVs.

If you decide on a CPV type vessel (with 76mm, crew of around 30-40, 30 day endurance) or a much smaller craft (with 12.7 to 20 mm, crew under 15 and endurance of max 15 days).

Realistically if you go for the smaller craft, you need something bigger than the Safehaven type because you can't sustain say a week long op on such a vessel with 4 crew.

[Boreas]

Perhaps something like this could replace the Peacocks? www.vittoria.biz/home/it/p580.html based on the Damen 5509 products.damen.com/en/ranges/stan-patrol/stan-patrol-5509 and in use with the Italian Guardia di Finanza.

Here's the bigger brother used by the Romanian Border Guard.

[ancientmariner]

Smaller craft are logistical constrained. Remember the Base is at Haulbowline Co. Cork. The OPV's sail out fully fueled, watered, and catering for a range of more than any typical patrol would require. The fewer crew the more 24/7 activities are compromised . Smaller craft are rarely all weather classed, except sortie craft like ocean rescue lifeboats. A sustained patrol requires a vessel with reliable seakeeping qualities. The replacements must be capable and must be Naval vessels also. Possibly look around spare Naval capacity in Europe, and plan to build or lease as soon as possible. In the meantime let us make sure P63 is "Good to Go"

[WhingeNot]

I'd agree with above, in that the future replacement Eithne should be a direct replacement - as in also a HPV i.e. able to carry (and hanger) a helicopter.. and to actually do so.

Also, that the next two replacement ships also to have a helicopter facility - even if only a basic facility e.g. good weather/no hanger - just a landing pad and for some refuelling.

This on the basis of retaining an 8-ship naval service but, with 3 ships (<50%) having a helicopter capability...to maximise the patrol/reach capabilities for Ireland's large chunk of the Atlantic etc.

I also agree with above, that an additional (to the 8-ship fleet) 4-8 smaller, but sea capable 'boats' (as opposed to ships(?)) be added for more coastal (CPV) based duties... (assigned to? &/or partly) worked by an enlarged/emboldened Naval Service Reserve (NSR) and NS together.

In the latter regard, were there ever any complaints about the Danish 'Flyvefisken' class patrol boats? It is stated (yup, Wikipedia) that a modified design of these did not win the previous Australian competition for the boats eventually won by the Armidale Class mentioned above. The 'Flyvefisken' were designed to be modular though, and presumably robust enough to work Danish/Baltic waters?

Also, the 14 member 'Flyvefisken' fleet (from 1985 onwards) only lasted about 15 years in Danish service however, they were also designed to be modular (a good thing) and since their decommissioning in 2010 it seems, half have been recommishioned into service into both the Lithuanian and Portugeese Navies - the latter as recently as this year.

So, say 4 boats available now (yes, second-hand) for Coastal (CPV) use etc. minus some hardware... in Addition... to 3 (HPV) (P60 HPV version?) replacement ships in the future, would be useful??!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyvefisken-class_patrol_vessel

http://defence.pk/threads/first-sf300-patrol-boat-for-portugal-arrives.376716/

[Fortitude]

A quick, broader,question related to the development of the defence/security policy and the White Paper: is there capacity within the defence establishment to consider the questions of change at a strategic level? I get the feeling, because of the lack of debate and the absence of meaty references in posts here, that there isn't really a group of strategic thinkers in the Department of Defence engaged with the wider public, academia, the media etc. I suspect that the White Paper will propose a transition to a "Navy" the timing seems to be right, the personnel seem to be in place but how does a small country like Ireland ensure that the policy environment is well-stocked with a good understanding of trends elsewhere, picks up on good ideas and is capable of generating its own proposals. Perhaps a network of military attaches and some government support for a few academic posts to analyse current defence policy rather than the history of one theme or another which is a bit boring now and doesn't really move the debate forward. I think the Irish Navy needs a broader policy debate then which type of vessels should replace the previous generation. A Mahan would be nice but a few well-researched articles to get people thinking would move things in the right direction.

[hptmurphy]

Ok.

With the use of the word boats as opposed to ships, you automatically get discredited,

Bye!!

[Laners]

Toddle off

[ropebag]

A quick, broader,question related to the development of the defence/security policy and the White Paper: is there capacity within the defence establishment to consider the questions of change at a strategic level? I get the feeling, because of the lack of debate and the absence of meaty references in posts here, that there isn't really a group of strategic thinkers in the Department of Defence engaged with the wider public, academia, the media etc. I suspect that the White Paper will propose a transition to a "Navy" the timing seems to be right, the personnel seem to be in place but how does a small country like Ireland ensure that the policy environment is well-stocked with a good understanding of trends elsewhere, picks up on good ideas and is capable of generating its own proposals. Perhaps a network of military attaches and some government support for a few academic posts to analyse current defence policy rather than the history of one theme or another which is a bit boring now and doesn't really move the debate forward. I think the Irish Navy needs a broader policy debate then which type of vessels should replace the previous generation. A Mahan would be nice but a few well-researched articles to get people thinking would move things in the right direction.

two things leap out - firstly that for all the 'cuts' to the irish military over the period of the current government, the current government appears to be the most, in its thinking and words, defence orientated government of not just my lifetime, but my parents lifetime. secondly, the MOU with the UK, and the follow-on document which will outline the concrete steps to be taken within that MOU, will be groundbreaking in the impact on defence thinking within Ireland. moreover, if Ireland can have a defence MOU with the UK, it can have a defence MOU with anyone...

[WhingeNot]

The use of [‘’] and the words ships and ‘boats’ was intended to make a necessary distinction between vessels of quite different sizes.

A ‘boat’ for the majority of people can mean anything from a small rowing - ‘boat’ to a ‘big boat’- cruise liner.

A ‘ship’ only means one thing to most people – a ‘Big boat’.

The subtle distinction would need to be made between a vessel of approximately 2,000t with around 45 crew, and a vessel of a quarter of that size and about half the crew.

Politicians/the Public would likely be more understanding of a more ‘refined’ description of an ‘improvement’ of the Naval Service by:

Retaining an ‘8 ship fleet’ for the Naval Service and, the addition of a - separate group of 4-8 far smaller boats...

for use by the Naval Service Reserve for example (with the NS) as a supplement, to fill in the gaps between the much bigger ‘ships’ and, to operate closer to shore when the ‘ships’ are further out at sea e.g. to catch smaller fishing vessels, drug runners, illicit landings, Search and Rescue and so on –

... would be more understandable and appreciated by tax-payers than a more dramatic sounding expansion of the Naval Service alone from an 8-ship fleet to a 12-16 ship fleet.

I was not attempting to use naval colloquiums or terminology.

I think most people would also appreciate the concept of a bunch of smaller ‘boats’ for use by the Naval Reserves as a stepping stone in training to bigger ‘ships’, and as a training tool for the NS (permanent) for the same reason, while also being available as a temporary step-down fill-in for bigger ‘ships’ in case of whatever eventuality etc. etc...

All this notwithstanding a retained 8 (‘big’) ship core of (improved) vessels for the NS.

[ropebag]

if the RN can call a 16,000 ton vessel, armed with 40+ nuclear weapons with the capacity for just short of 200 nuclear weapons, a 'boat', then i wouldn't get too precious about the terminology.

becides, if it winds up fisheads...

[Laners]

And there are those who refer to a sub as a ship .

[hptmurphy]

Very simple, ships carry boats, but boats cannot carry ships and Submarines will always be referred to as being boats.

Quoting from wiki...also an automatic disqualifier...

[Laners]

Now let's move on to airships and flying boats .

[ancientmariner]

Oxford Maritime definitions

Now let's move on to airships and flying boats .

Boat, the generic name for small open craft without decking and usually propelled by oars, or sails, or outboard engines. General exceptions are fishing vessels and submarines, both of which are known as Boats irrespective of size. Certain coastal attack craft used during both world wars were also called boats such as MTB's and MGB's. Hairs get split in modern times so that anything under 100 tonnes will be called a patrol boat or patrol craft. Those getting a little bigger but not yet a durable Ship are often referred to as Vessel such as CPV's. It is safe to say anything over 1000 tonnes is a SHIP.