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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Her former helideck can be covered in the marquee that's usually used for functions aboard. Only a short walk from the waterline access.
    We may need to think about this project more. People trafficking, especially out of North African Region is a complex business with many actors. Globally 16million people have migrated and 33million people are internally displaced in countries with fragmented political systems or at war. The supply is therefore, in relative terms, endless. Damaging the transport at point of rescue, whether near shore ,or on approach of a rescue craft is part of the conditions of paid passage. Those sent on the short journey between Turkish territory and Greece are told to puncture their inflatables near shore so that they have to be rescued. There is no solution to the advantage of the EU or the migrants themselves. The only solution is stability and peace in their own countries and an ability to adapt to climate change in the long term. Looking at world migration maps many migrates die in transit including in the Americas and the Far East with Australia. The initial action has to be stop the boats and render aid in the areas of migrant assembly before they embark into the unknown.

  2. #27
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMP View Post
    Absolutely, it will be open season for all and sundry and it will become a selling point for traffickers. Just head in that direction and the navy will pick you up and take you the rest of the way. Far from actually sorting the problem out it will compound it. Fair enough provide assistance to those in need of food, water, medical attention, but do it on route back to their point or origin. Once back in that territories waters, sorry chaps your on your own.

    Essentially all we will be doing is assisting in providing safe transport and attending to the welfare needs of untold numbers while they are in transit, and have to watch those numbers increase as a result of it. The issue needs to be dealt with at source and unfortunately that's what our illustrious politicians are refusing to do.
    You can't return them to Libya if they have escaped there to claim refugee status

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    We may need to think about this project more. People trafficking, especially out of North African Region is a complex business with many actors. Globally 16million people have migrated and 33million people are internally displaced in countries with fragmented political systems or at war. The supply is therefore, in relative terms, endless. Damaging the transport at point of rescue, whether near shore ,or on approach of a rescue craft is part of the conditions of paid passage. Those sent on the short journey between Turkish territory and Greece are told to puncture their inflatables near shore so that they have to be rescued. There is no solution to the advantage of the EU or the migrants themselves. The only solution is stability and peace in their own countries and an ability to adapt to climate change in the long term. Looking at world migration maps many migrates die in transit including in the Americas and the Far East with Australia. The initial action has to be stop the boats and render aid in the areas of migrant assembly before they embark into the unknown.
    My thoughts exactly, mentioned on another thread. Long term, stabilising the failed states from where they are fleeing is the only solution. But Africa seems unable to do this, and Europe is unwilling, while the USA would just be unwelcome.

  4. #29
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    The trouble is that the decision and possible action chain is contaminated by National exigencies. Such as imminent elections, financial crisis in Greece, and general meltdown in relations in the Middle East and Asia Minor. The potential interlinking of moral obligation and damaging current social fabric is reminiscent of opening Pandora's Box. The crux is those that implement decisions ie Navies ,receive their instructions from politically motivated amateurs who forget to look at consequences and collateral effects. The old adage applies whatever you do , do no harm. In this case we hand it to the UN and a committee from the involved nations.

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  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Her former helideck can be covered in the marquee that's usually used for functions aboard. Only a short walk from the waterline access.
    Exactly my thinking. Plenty of space for chemical toilets etc outside hangar. Easy to secure also. Convert the hangar as a medical facility/distribution point for bottled water/food.

    There is simply not enough free deck space on the new OPV design to perform the rescue role. Perfect for counter trafficing patrols though. Still, that flight deck deemed unnecessary by some would be useful for both roles.

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  8. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    You can't return them to Libya if they have escaped there to claim refugee status
    Then blockade the ports they are leaving from. At this stage, the Italians are seriously considering that option.

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  10. #32
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    Just land them in Liberland... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-31151279.html

    Job done.
    Oh Fortune...like the moon...you are changeable...

  11. #33
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    Can anybody explain how so many emigrants are sailing from Turkey to Greece? A "NATO" country with a huge Navy is "apparently" unable to secure it's own coastal area and stop emigrants sailing to another" NATO" country.....Yet the EU is going to stop emigrants and "push" them back to the Libyan coast? Has anyone got any idea how the Libyans might react to foreign naval vessels doing this?
    I wonder what would happen if the thousands camped around Calais got together bought a fishing boat and headed for Dover?
    Last edited by Galloglass; 25th April 2015 at 13:27.

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  13. #34
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    Remember Tony Montana , AKA Scareface , arrived in Florida with lots of undesireable as refugees compliments of Castro . Castro pulled a fast on on the U.S and cleared out his common criminals and the mental hospitals .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  14. #35
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    I wonder what would happen if the thousands camped around Calais got together bought a fishing boat and headed for Dover?
    They don't really need to...plenty of unscrupulous lorry drivers / boat owners...or they can make the dash for a lorry themselves...

    Maybe they're more likely to buy a boat and head for Cork.

    What then?
    Oh Fortune...like the moon...you are changeable...

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  16. #36
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    and none of these are unilaterally ratified.
    No but if your country is a signatory or has ratified it then your bound to it (Ireland has)

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  18. #37
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomh903 View Post
    Then blockade the ports they are leaving from. At this stage, the Italians are seriously considering that option.
    Isn't a naval blockade considered an act of war?

  19. #38
    Closed account hptmurphy's Avatar
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    You can't return them to Libya if they have escaped there to claim refugee status
    but they are not Libyans, merely using Libya as a departure point, so in law thats exactly where they should be returned to.

    PersonallY I wouldn't be using L.E. Eithne, while you can use the accomadation ladders to get aboard , theres only one access to the flight deck without going through the rest of the ship. If you are going to use it , the hanger becomes a storage area for blankets etc and a triage area. Its only to facilitate the transit of the people, not bring them home.You don't want to block the main egress route from below decks with casualties.
    Pay them properly.....and they will come!

  20. #39
    Closed account hptmurphy's Avatar
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    The potential interlinking of moral obligation and damaging current social fabric is reminiscent of opening Pandora's Box
    Iraq being case in point. Return them to where they embarked and let Libya sort it out.
    Pay them properly.....and they will come!

  21. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Isn't a naval blockade considered an act of war?
    Libya doesn't have a government who'se writ runs more than about 6ft from its cabinet table. if such an entity decided that a blockade was an act of war and that a state of war existed between it and the EU, the consequences for the EU would not be particularly onerous.

    morever Libya has two such 'governments', the one internationally recognised and dependant on the EU for its funding, and the other that no one recognises. its the one no one recognises thats getting shirty about EU forces blowing up rickety fishing boats.

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  23. #41
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Iraq being case in point. Return them to where they embarked and let Libya sort it out.

    You can't do that either!!

  24. #42
    Closed account hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    You can't do that either!!
    Thats European law on the issue, that illegal immigrants are returned to point of entry which in this case is Libya.
    Pay them properly.....and they will come!

  25. #43
    Closed account hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Isn't a naval blockade considered an act of war?
    Do as JFK did during the Cuban crises and term it a quarantine in order to filter traffic coming out of Libya once its outside Libyas EEZ won't be a legal issue
    Pay them properly.....and they will come!

  26. #44
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Do as JFK did during the Cuban crises and term it a quarantine in order to filter traffic coming out of Libya once its outside Libyas EEZ won't be a legal issue
    And filter the traffic trough the minefield .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  27. #45
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Thats European law on the issue, that illegal immigrants are returned to point of entry which in this case is Libya.
    You can't return them to a country where they escaped armed conflict (eg Libya)

  28. #46
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    I would apportion some blame to the implementation of regime change in the Middle East, followed by the Arab Spring across North Africa, and overlaid with radical Islamisation in East Africa and Nigeria. The West were conned into supporting interests with hidden agendas who once on the ascendent proceeded to hunt and displace internal ethnic populations. Hence the migrants and migration. Libya is only a place, maybe with agreement of the North African states it should become a UN Territory and try to restore normality. The migration by sea has to stop as most Navies will be run ragged chasing their tails for no benefit except to the traffickers.

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  30. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    Maybe they're more likely to buy a boat and head for Cork.

    What then?
    They'll need some boat ... more rescues

  31. #48
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    They'll need some boat ... more rescues
    Its about the same distance as Libya to Italy...more rescues...then what?

    My point is...we need to start thinking about this...and we need to stop this at source...before it becomes either a United Kingdom or Ireland problem.

    I wouldn't ever assume that your geographical location will protect you from this landing on your doorstep.

    I was speaking to a lady on Tuesday night who recently ran the gauntlet at Calais...frightening apparently.

    This thing is going to get huge before it goes away.

    South Belfast...yes South Belfast is already teeming with Somalis...particularly around the Holy Lands...one murdered another earlier this year.

    And they are arriving here legally. Imagine the scene if Ireland...and Northern Ireland...got hit by waves of illegals.

    If you'd said to me ten years ago that there would be Somali refugees living in Belfast I'd have laughed at you...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26189348
    Oh Fortune...like the moon...you are changeable...

  32. #49
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    Part of the whole issue is that this has been approached as a humanitarian mission, a stop people drowning mission, therefore an SAR mission rather than a border control mission. An interception of illegals mission which is what it is, were just too afraid of the PC lobby to call it that. Its what Frontex refers to it as so why cant the rest of us.

    We are all well aware that the duty to rescue people in distress is a longstanding maritime tradition and is part of customary international law. It is expressed in the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and in several other international law of the sea instruments. The duty to render assistance applies in all maritime zones and to every person in distress without discrimination, including asylum-seekers and refugees. However the specific legal framework governing rescue at sea does not apply to interception operations that have no search and rescue component.

    So we started off on the wrong foot there as we are stating that Humanitarian assistance (and therefore rescue) is our mission. So how does the UN define an interception?

    There is no internationally accepted definition of interception, and its meaning is largely informed by State practice. UNHCR Executive Committee Conclusion No. 97 (2003) on “Protection Safeguards in Interception Measures” contains a working definition of interception as “one of the measures employed by States to: (i) prevent embarkation of persons on an international journey; (ii) prevent further onward international travel by persons who have commenced their journey; or (iii) assert control of vessels where there are reasonable grounds to believe the vessel is transporting persons contrary to international or national maritime law; where, in relation to the above, the person or persons do not have the required documentation or valid permission to enter”.

    A refugee is defined by the 1951 United Nations Convention relating to the Status of Refugees ("Refugee Convention") as a person who:

    Owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.

    Merely meeting the above definition does not ensure that refugee status will be granted. In fact, most persons loosely described as "refugees" are actually classified as migrants.

    In order to obtain refugee status, a migrant must both apply for and receive asylum. So till that has happened their migrants, intercepted at sea because there are reasonable grounds to believe the vessel is transporting persons contrary to international or national maritime law; where, in relation to the above, the person or persons do not have the required documentation or valid permission to enter.

    Its a play on the law but it changes the dynamics of the mission totally.

    When migrants and their vessel are intercepted and taken aboard (if necessary), they come under the jurisdiction of the flag state. The flag state is under no obligation to grant asylum, nor is there any binding international convention that specifically covers the duties regarding migrants on ships. Generally, these migrants are disembarked at the next port of call. However, a captain has discretion that may allow him to determine an alternate destination according to the circumstances.

    There was a get-together of the UNHCR in Djibouti in 2011 to discuss these very issues. One of the key points to come out of that little gathering was this: Care is required to ensure that rapid processing and / or an increase in resettlement places for asylum-seekers or refugees rescued at sea does not create pull factors or lead persons traveling irregularly by sea to create “distress” situations in order to promote rescue.

    Hands up everyone who thinks that's exactly what were doing?



    We travel not for trafficking alone,
    By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
    For lust of knowing what should not be known,
    We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

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  34. #50
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    FMP got you. Absolutely on the button.We must not be part of genetically engineering Europe.

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