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  • Originally posted by Orion View Post
    ...Or have I got that wrong?
    a bit.

    Bulwark was replaced by Enterprise, however - and tbf her crew have worked like bastards - replacing a 20,000 ton, well decked assualt ship with three Merlins and a flightdeck bigger than some European countries with a 4000 ton Hydrographic survey vessel is a bit like trying to replace your 120ltr PLCE bergen with a Lidl carrier bag.

    mouse. rape. elelephant.

    i'd agree entirely about Cameron - he boxed himself into an entirely predictable corner by jumping so whole-heartedly on the anti-immigration bandwagon, and now any change to that looks like a major u-turn brought about by political incompetance. he's tried - and possibly succeeded - to dig himself out of that hole by agreeing to take regugees direct from Syria, but he made a very serious miscalculation by not understanding that the electorate, for good or ill, see a very big difference between large numbers of black african men trying to get into holidaymakers cars at Calais, and families with kids who look like Brits on railway lines in Eastern Europe.

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    • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
      refufgees/migrants/whatever aren't the only thing going on in the world, training for other things continues - and in truth, pulling refugees out of the water is less critical for UK security than having a fully trained and worked up RN and 3X. moreover, it very much appears that numbers transiting the Med are on the way down, partly because the land border via Greece etc.. is attracting more, and secondly because it always slacks off in the Autumn/Winter.
      Other things like....... Syria. Where a Civil War has been going on for nearly 4 and a half years, caused over 300,000 casualties, 7.6 million IDPs and >4 million refugees. Where at least 1 side has used weapons of mass destruction.

      Of course not

      Originally posted by morpheus View Post
      3. now, anyone - not deemed to be an asylum seeker fleeing war / tyranny / oppression / danger - send them back to country of origin / nearest possible location on a flight / boat.
      Absolutely agree!

      militarily though, we need to get battlegroups spinning up and running, we need to start working with authorities as they are in countries of origin and we need to start stabilising parts of these countries where these people can internally flee to, assist in setting up govt and trade etc AND GET THE ARAB ETC COUNTRIES IN ON THIS TOO because right now, whilst EU is opening its arms, some other countries are not.

      Can you deal with 1 side of a Civil War in order to protect civilians? No you must deal with all
      Definitely agree that other countries need to be involved.

      A start would be for UN to extend the mandate of UNDOF (to include PoC), massively reinforce it and give it a Chapter VII. At least some IDPs would be safe.
      Last edited by DeV; 4 September 2015, 12:15.

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      • Undof

        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Other things like....... Syria. Where a Civil War has been going on for nearly 4 and a half years, caused over 300,000 casualties, 7.6 million IDPs and >4 million refugees. Where at least 1 side has used weapons of mass destruction.

        Of course not


        Absolutely agree!



        Can you deal with 1 side of a Civil War in order to protect civilians? No you must deal with all
        Definitely agree that other countries need to be involved.

        A start would be for UN to extend the mandate of UNDOF (to include PoC), massively reinforce it and give it a Chapter VII. At least some IDPs would be safe.
        I agree that UNDOF Forces and Protection of Civilians should be at levels to do the job as intended. However the continual draining of Middle Eastern populations are also augmented by growing numbers of East and sub-Saharan Africans looking for a Western style life . The most efficient way of processing those fleeing for their very lives from those seeking better opportunities is unclear without the co-operation of the adjacent and supply countries. The UN Security Council permanent members need to drive the effort to stabilise the situation. You cannot start sorting migrants, after they arrive enmass, on a you stay, you go policy. Such strategy requires coercion and elements of State violence to victims of circumstance. It would add another chapter as we replace the USA as the bad guy.

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        • Have recognised processing centres as close as possible to Syria - it would make the people-smugglers redundant, it would help the neediest and most vulnerable, and 20 year old males from Ivory Coast would find their presence there that much harder to explain...
          'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
          'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
          Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
          He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
          http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            I agree that UNDOF Forces and Protection of Civilians should be at levels to do the job as intended. However the continual draining of Middle Eastern populations are also augmented by growing numbers of East and sub-Saharan Africans looking for a Western style life . The most efficient way of processing those fleeing for their very lives from those seeking better opportunities is unclear without the co-operation of the adjacent and supply countries. The UN Security Council permanent members need to drive the effort to stabilise the situation. You cannot start sorting migrants, after they arrive enmass, on a you stay, you go policy. Such strategy requires coercion and elements of State violence to victims of circumstance. It would add another chapter as we replace the USA as the bad guy.
            The US (and the West) has to accept some blame, they are supplying and training one of the sides in the Syrian Civil War

            Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
            Have recognised processing centres as close as possible to Syria - it would make the people-smugglers redundant, it would help the neediest and most vulnerable, and 20 year old males from Ivory Coast would find their presence there that much harder to explain...
            Just because it isn't in the news doesn't mean all is not ok in Ivory Coast otherwise UNOCI wouldn't be there, read the reports

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            • A "father" gets his whole family killed by making them undertake an extremely dangerous journey no proper man would make his family do and then we are made look at pictures of him in tears and his sons body washed up on the shore.

              Cue countless opinion pieces about how its our fault those kids and their mother died. Our politicians see the headlines and immediately think "O s*#t, we might actually lose votes now that people are noticing that we've being doing sweet f*#k all to stop this crisis" and then announce we will accept tens of thousands more refugees no matter what state our economy is in to provide for them, thus encouraging hundreds of thousands more migrants to try and get themselves killed crossing the Med and repeating the whole cycle. This thing is never going to end...
              Last edited by tomh903; 4 September 2015, 20:42.

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              • Originally posted by tomh903 View Post
                A "father" gets his whole family killed by making them undertake an extremely dangerous journey no proper man would make his family do....
                Where to even begin with such vapid shite.

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                • Is that not unfair?
                  If Ireland was a dangerous warzone would you not try
                  And remove your family from that situation?
                  Or would you patiently wait to be killed?
                  Im Ron Burgendy??

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                  • Originally posted by tomh903 View Post
                    A "father" gets his whole family killed by making them undertake an extremely dangerous journey no proper man would make his family do and then we are made look at pictures of him in tears and his sons body washed up on the shore.

                    Cue countless opinion pieces about how its our fault those kids and their mother died. Our politicians see the headlines and immediately think "O s*#t, we might actually lose votes now that people are noticing that we've being doing sweet f*#k all to stop this crisis" and then announce we will accept tens of thousands more refugees no matter what state our economy is in to provide for them, thus encouraging hundreds of thousands more migrants to try and get themselves killed crossing the Med and repeating the whole cycle. This thing is never going to end...
                    Fat finger syndrome ... couldn't disagree more !!!

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                    • Originally posted by Orion View Post
                      Fat finger syndrome ... couldn't disagree more !!!
                      I am in a strange dilemma . The little boy and family came arduously across the seas and all were drowned except the father on a sandy beach. Within 48 hours he was back in Kobane for his family's funeral. How was that achieved so quickly and easily and back to a place he had to leave. Why would he want to go back to such a place?

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                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        I am in a strange dilemma . The little boy and family came arduously across the seas and all were drowned except the father on a sandy beach. Within 48 hours he was back in Kobane for his family's funeral. How was that achieved so quickly and easily and back to a place he had to leave. Why would he want to go back to such a place?
                        If I was in that man's position right now, I wouldn't know what I was doing.

                        Unfortunately, should he remain in Kobane, grieving the loss of his family, it's likely that anger will direct him to become a combatant and eventually a statistic somewhere. That, or he'll end up on Oprah or a pin up for some NGO.
                        Last edited by SwiftandSure; 5 September 2015, 01:29.

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                        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                          I am in a strange dilemma . The little boy and family came arduously across the seas and all were drowned except the father on a sandy beach. Within 48 hours he was back in Kobane for his family's funeral. How was that achieved so quickly and easily and back to a place he had to leave. Why would he want to go back to such a place?
                          Not sure what your questions is. Where else would he bury his family but at home. Its not the place he was fleeing but the regime. Those he sought to shield and protect don't need that protection any more and he is probably no longer concerned for his own safety.

                          I assume if it was his wish to return home then Turkey would have facilitated that.

                          I haven't seen any statistics but I would guess able bodied men are more likely than women or children to survive going into the water at sea. Is that not why women and children are prioritised for rescue?

                          You might question his wisdom in putting to sea in a flimsy craft to attempt to migrate/escape but he is not alone and many many others have been successful.

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                          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            I am in a strange dilemma . The little boy and family came arduously across the seas and all were drowned except the father on a sandy beach. Within 48 hours he was back in Kobane for his family's funeral. How was that achieved so quickly and easily and back to a place he had to leave. Why would he want to go back to such a place?
                            One of the sanest comments I have seen over the past days. As a person who has carried the corpse of a 3 year old ashore with no father/mother/siblings to mourn him, the frenzy into which we have whipped ourselves over the last 48hrs is bewildering. Prime ministers (Finland) offering their houses to migrants, billionaires offering to buy them islands where they can establish a new country, talking heads all over the media screaming for action, UN saying that Europe needs to take 200,000 refugees. And what happens when number 200,001 arrives? Whatever anyone says, this is not a sustainable solution. If people keep getting on boats, people will continue to die. So everything we do to encourage or promote this movement will inevitably cost lives.
                            We are happy to spend billions to host, help and integrate those who have been forced to flee their countries as well as many who are in it for a better material quality of life. But as soon as someone suggests spending blood and treasure to solve the source of the problems, nobody wants to step up to the plate.

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                            • the latest rescue vid on ns facebook taken today shows all guns being manned, or as near as dammit, the gpmg, hmg and i think i can even see a few of the lads hovering by the rhinos.

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                              • But as soon as someone suggests spending blood and treasure to solve the source of the problems, nobody wants to step up to the plate.
                                Syria is a problem without solution for the time being as neither side ,in what has become a full blown war,are attractive to those who might be in a position to help, not enough to commit to providing a full solution.

                                All we can do for now is help those with immediate needs.

                                The problem Syria is creating is it is actually overshadowing the migration of other nationalities, many of whom are not coming from regions as distressed as Syria .

                                I just don't know....
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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