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View Poll Results: (Realistically) What best to replace the Peacock CPVs with?

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  • Like for like (a similarly capable CPV)

    20 32.26%
  • 1-2 x OPVs (2 defending on available funds)

    39 62.90%
  • Larger number of much less capable patrol craft)

    3 4.84%
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Thread: CPV Replacement

  1. #551
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    To be honest, the ILV Granuaile covers most of the criteria too.
    Last edited by na grohmití; 24th January 2018 at 21:07.
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  2. #552
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=CTU;457224]Coastal Patrol Vessel vs Multi-Role Auxiliary Vessel?

    Read the first 3 lines again

    Reason why I posted it was the CPV replacement with counter mine capacity could be diving based

  3. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post

    Read the first 3 lines again

    Reason why I posted it was the CPV replacement with counter mine capacity could be diving based
    And I was suggesting that the CPV replacement dosn't necessarily have to be a CPV, I was thinking along the lines of New Zealand and their proposed Littoral Operations Support Capability vessel.

    http://www.navy.mil.nz/mtf/fsac/default.htm
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  5. #554
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    I notice in the NDP there is no specific mention of the replacement of the CPVs, this is worrying.

    Given that the waters off our East/South East coast are soon going to be highly contested I would have thought we should be looking at this as a point of urgency. We have the UK leaving the CFP, revoking the 1964 London Fishery Convention and possibly (still the plan) to leave the common market and customs union. All which means that the policing effort will increase dramatically as a result.

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  7. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    And I was suggesting that the CPV replacement dosn't necessarily have to be a CPV, I was thinking along the lines of New Zealand and their proposed Littoral Operations Support Capability vessel.

    http://www.navy.mil.nz/mtf/fsac/default.htm
    I would prefer something more like the Saab MCMV-80 or its cousin the Singapore LMV, both can do MCM and patrol and have decent sea going capabilities. Alternatively we could link with the Canadians as they are looking to replace their Kingston class which do a similar role.

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  9. #556
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    CPV Replacements

    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    I would prefer something more like the Saab MCMV-80 or its cousin the Singapore LMV, both can do MCM and patrol and have decent sea going capabilities. Alternatively we could link with the Canadians as they are looking to replace their Kingston class which do a similar role.
    I will leave it to the Naval Service to replace the current 34year old ships with vessels capable of carrying out operational duties, including those duties currently done by all our ships. Hopefully autonomous tweaks will be restricted to providing safety and certainty to crews and be free from cyper Security problems when using drones or other remote systems. Looking East may bring you a fair weather ship-think WNA, storms, endurance .

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  11. #557
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  12. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I will leave it to the Naval Service to replace the current 34year old ships with vessels capable of carrying out operational duties, including those duties currently done by all our ships. Hopefully autonomous tweaks will be restricted to providing safety and certainty to crews and be free from cyper Security problems when using drones or other remote systems. Looking East may bring you a fair weather ship-think WNA, storms, endurance .
    The Peacocks came from Hong Kong, but not to rely too much on that fact. The region does have Typhoons which are not a small storms, might not as cold as a NA storm but just as rough. Famously in Dec 44 the US Task Force 38 got hit by Typhoon Cobra in the Philippine Sea and they lost 3 destroyers with many other ships from the battleship Iowa through carriers to destroyers badly damaged. So the Singapore vessels are designed just like our OPVs to be able to survive in SS9 and fully operation in SS6. as for endurance they have a range of 3500nm.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 22nd February 2018 at 13:09.

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  14. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The Peacocks came from Hong Kong, but not to rely too much on that fact. The region does have Typhoons which are not a small storms, might not as cold as a NA storm but just as rough. Famously in Dec 44 the US Task Force 38 got hit by Typhoon Cobra in the Philippine Sea and they lost 3 destroyers with many other ships from the battleship Iowa through carriers to destroyers badly damaged. So the Singapore vessels are designed just like our OPVs to be able to survive in SS9 and fully operation in SS6. as for endurance they have a range of 3500nm.
    I spent most of my junior career in that area where rainstorms and wind were a seasonal activity requiring care in routing. Bull Halsey while regarded as magnificent, particularly the battle of Leyte Gulf , was also constantly aggressive, and should have allowed the Fleet to maneuver to avoid such losses.
    In general the Far East is regarded as a fair weather area but with caution similar to the Caribbean. The CPV's are limited in range with 3 days fuel at full power. We must do better to last out at least a normal SO of about 3 weeks at at 14/16kts

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  16. #560
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  18. #561
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    https://www.luerssen-defence.com/opv-80/

    Australians are buying this as a replacement for Armidale Class
    Time for another break I think......

  19. #562
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    [QUOTE=hptmurphy;458594]https://www.luerssen-defence.com/opv-80/

    Australians are buying this as a replacement for Armidale Class[/QUOTE

    I wouldn't. Beam 13m on a length of 80m would have a very lively flight deck, especially with a draft of 3m. Our 80's have a beam of 14m and a draft of 3.8m.

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  21. #563
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    Some of the technology available today. Probably has the same effect in one load as a Hunt or Consiton class had in an entire ship.
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/udt-...-new-launcher/
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  23. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    Some of the technology available today. Probably has the same effect in one load as a Hunt or Consiton class had in an entire ship.
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/udt-...-new-launcher/
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  25. #565
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    https://saabgroup.com/globalassets/c...nov-2017_2.pdf

    Some interesting options for counter-mine/IED capabilities

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  27. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    https://saabgroup.com/globalassets/c...nov-2017_2.pdf

    Some interesting options for counter-mine/IED capabilities
    It seems to be a full description of potential countermeasures overlaid with actual in theater capabilities of those countries that are still plagued by remnants of historical minefields. Unmanned, remote systems are efficient and deployable from a range of vessels. Ground mine areas would be parts of the Irish Sea, Estuaries, Harbour approaches. The Swedes and Germans would be good source of knowledge to set up a countermeasures unit.

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  29. #567
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    How plagued is Ireland of discarded sea mines and under water UXO ? there are vessels past or coming to 100 years old packed with ww1 and ww2 explosives and munitions which are breaking up more and more each year.
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  30. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    How plagued is Ireland of discarded sea mines and under water UXO ? there are vessels past or coming to 100 years old packed with ww1 and ww2 explosives and munitions which are breaking up more and more each year.
    The only one I know of, that is an unconfirmed threat, is the residue wreck of SS Richard Montgomery, a Liberty ship, with 1400 tons of bomb materials on board that sunk off Kent near Sheerness. There is a school of thought that anno domine will take care of the problem. Some think it could blow if a higher deck collapsed allowing armed bombs cascade on to larger consignments in the lower holds. I don't know of any emerging or dormant threats on the Irish Coast.

  31. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The only one I know of, that is an unconfirmed threat, is the residue wreck of SS Richard Montgomery, a Liberty ship, with 1400 tons of bomb materials on board that sunk off Kent near Sheerness. There is a school of thought that anno domine will take care of the problem. Some think it could blow if a higher deck collapsed allowing armed bombs cascade on to larger consignments in the lower holds. I don't know of any emerging or dormant threats on the Irish Coast.
    Stuff from the Beaufort Dyke in the North Channel occasionally washes ashore on the East Antrim Coast.

    But that would be a Royal Navy problem.

    Hms Drake in Church Bay, Rathlin Island was also full of live ammo...until the Royal Navy removed same...and blew the wreck up in the early 70's.

    An odd piece still appears though.

    The SS Lough Garry...sitting upright in 30m off Rue Point (minus a big chunk of her bow) is full of rifles and ammunition.

    Again the Royal Navy dropped large anchor chains on her cargo hatches in the early 70s...supposedly to prevent terrorists accessing the weapons on board.
    Last edited by spider; 23rd July 2018 at 23:02.
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  33. #570
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    You used to hear of the occasional mine in fishing net etc but not in a good while I think.

    Giving that we are an island we could be seriously effected by a mining campaign.

    You’ll also notice that it wasn’t just counter mine capabilities that WP15 talked about, it also said counter IED. Potential terror threat to say the many cruise liners calling here?!

  34. #571
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    Was there an incident a long time ago when a charge was placed on a sea mine. And the rib failed to start.?

  35. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Was there an incident a long time ago when a charge was placed on a sea mine. And the rib failed to start.?
    Stories abound. Don't know that one. Some army personnel (Ordnance) were killed and injured trying to control a Mine in surf on one of our beaches, some years ago in the 50's maybe.

    Mine field type threats are generally from own defensive fields that shift in stormy weather. Bigger danger are ground influence mines sown by Air or Submarines to catch traffic on departure or arrival. A large ship sunk in a narrow channel will block a port for some time.

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  37. #573
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    The risk from old mines in our waters is extremely low. There are still sometimes an influence mine (magnetic) recovered in the UK, normally as they were air dropped into estuary areas and have sat in soft sand or mud until uncovered by changing tides. Any moored mine that was not disposed of at the end of the war will now have sunk and most likely the outer casing will have corroded away. As for munitions, nearly 2000 ships were sunk in our waters of which around 200 were warships during the 2 World Wars, majority being subs. How many of the cargo ships were carrying munitions I do not know, would need someone to spend a few years finding the manifests. However the warships all had munitions and the risk is that as they disintergrate these could become dislodged and end up in fishing nets, especially as wrecks are good places to find fish! But this threat does not requires and NS vessel rather Bomb Disposal to make safe whatever is hauled up by mistake.

    As for underwater IEDs has there ever been an incident?
    The attack on Mountbatten was with a bomb hidden onboard in the engine compartment rather than being an underwater IED.
    The attaching of a device to the hull of a cruise ship is not that easy: (a) the ship would have to be in port, (b) a suitable water tight device would have to be available, (c) this device would need some way of being attached to the hull of the vessel, (d) an experienced diver would need to somehow un-noticed get into the water carrying the IED, (e) the device would have to be a capable of remaining fixed to the ship when moving, etc etc, etc.
    And what would be the solution, better port security.

  38. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The risk from old mines in our waters is extremely low. There are still sometimes an influence mine (magnetic) recovered in the UK, normally as they were air dropped into estuary areas and have sat in soft sand or mud until uncovered by changing tides. Any moored mine that was not disposed of at the end of the war will now have sunk and most likely the outer casing will have corroded away. As for munitions, nearly 2000 ships were sunk in our waters of which around 200 were warships during the 2 World Wars, majority being subs. How many of the cargo ships were carrying munitions I do not know, would need someone to spend a few years finding the manifests. However the warships all had munitions and the risk is that as they disintergrate these could become dislodged and end up in fishing nets, especially as wrecks are good places to find fish! But this threat does not requires and NS vessel rather Bomb Disposal to make safe whatever is hauled up by mistake.

    As for underwater IEDs has there ever been an incident?
    The attack on Mountbatten was with a bomb hidden onboard in the engine compartment rather than being an underwater IED.
    The attaching of a device to the hull of a cruise ship is not that easy: (a) the ship would have to be in port, (b) a suitable water tight device would have to be available, (c) this device would need some way of being attached to the hull of the vessel, (d) an experienced diver would need to somehow un-noticed get into the water carrying the IED, (e) the device would have to be a capable of remaining fixed to the ship when moving, etc etc, etc.
    And what would be the solution, better port security.
    Just because it has never happened....

    It wouldn’t necessarily have to be attached to the vessel, it could be on the harbour floor or below the waterline on the quayside

  39. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Just because it has never happened....

    It wouldn’t necessarily have to be attached to the vessel, it could be on the harbour floor or below the waterline on the quayside
    Exactly it has never happened and is highly unlikely to happen except if a state was behind it. And unless the latter then improved port security is the answer.

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