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View Poll Results: (Realistically) What best to replace the Peacock CPVs with?

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  • Like for like (a similarly capable CPV)

    19 31.15%
  • 1-2 x OPVs (2 defending on available funds)

    39 63.93%
  • Larger number of much less capable patrol craft)

    3 4.92%
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Thread: CPV Replacement

  1. #426
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    As for counter mine/IED mission the P60 class have been built with the capacity to load 3 TEU containers to expand their mission capability. This is similar to what the USN has tried with the extremely expensive LCS vessels and what the Australians will try with the new offshore vessels.
    An example of such a system is from Atlas Electronik and could easily be a way to give the NS back a counter mine capacity. Then it makes perfect sense to have a core fleet of 6 P60's and 2 P50's with an EPV/MPV to follow later as a replacement for the LE Eithne.

    https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/wha...ission-module/
    Last edited by EUFighter; 3rd March 2017 at 18:27.

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  3. #427
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Do Babcock have a design for a CPV or an MRV?

    With a 4 TEU capacity you could take the necessary NSDS equipment
    Last edited by DeV; 4th March 2017 at 10:51.

  4. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Do Babcock have a design for a CPV or an OPV?

    With a 4 TEU capacity you could take the necessary NSDS equipment
    if the article has any semblance of truth in it, i would put good odds on the proposed C-IED capability being sacrificed on the altar of cost savings, commonality, and the NS wanting to get hulls in the water rather than taking the risk of the CPV replacements getting kicked into the long grass.

    Babcock might be able to do a fiddle of the existing design/build to get 4 rather than 3 TEU on, but any fiddle costs money to even explore, and any real change will cost lots - and one of the drivers of this proposed deal (assuming it exists) is that Babcock will be able to offer P65 and P66 for a bargain precisely because this will be the 5th and 6th time they will have built exactly the same design with exactly the same componants.

    in shipbuilding, as in every other industrial process, the first couple of times you do something there is a degree of trial and error. by the time you get to 5th and 6th the process has been ironed out, the whole build will be smoother, quicker, and less manpower intensive. that makes it cheaper...

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  6. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Do Babcock have a design for a CPV or an OPV?

    With a 4 TEU capacity you could take the necessary NSDS equipment
    Why 4 TEU's?

    For minehunting 1 TEU is needed, as for diving a single TEU can be fitted with all needed to support diving operation, if a Decompression Chamber is also to be carried this would take the third place currently available.

    http://www.smp-ltd.com/category/cati...ms-Containers/

    However a good modification would be to have a flex spot where the 3rd RIB is carried. This could be for a TEU and one of then we could have a TEU base for carrying the RIB when needed and for other mission pallets when something different is needed.

    All this would only be possible if we have TEU mission systems and I have not seen that we have ordered anything along these lines. Knowing how we purchase things we will only order such flexible mission systems after an event when we find we do not have the capability.

  7. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Why 4 TEU's?

    For minehunting 1 TEU is needed, as for diving a single TEU can be fitted with all needed to support diving operation, if a Decompression Chamber is also to be carried this would take the third place currently available.

    http://www.smp-ltd.com/category/cati...ms-Containers/

    However a good modification would be to have a flex spot where the 3rd RIB is carried. This could be for a TEU and one of then we could have a TEU base for carrying the RIB when needed and for other mission pallets when something different is needed.

    All this would only be possible if we have TEU mission systems and I have not seen that we have ordered anything along these lines. Knowing how we purchase things we will only order such flexible mission systems after an event when we find we do not have the capability.
    The vessel the NSDS hires for training has to carry 2 plus the LARS system:
    1 Sub Surface (ROV and Side Scan Sonar)
    1 Decompression Chamber
    1 Surface Supply Diving Equipment

    You will notice 3 above not 2, reason being the Sub Surface container isn't always carried for training (but you never know when you might need it).

    It also needs to carry the SMP LARS unit which is approx the size of a 10ft container.

    also bear in mind you need to able to open those containers, space to walk around (while in the diving kit)

    Well the vessel that the NS hires for training is required to carry:

  8. #431
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    We can all undo the knitting. The normal procedure is to make an expression of interest to relevant yards and see what the costs are. An MRV acquisition is part of Naval /Government policy. My only concern is the continuous reference to counter IED in the maritime environment. AFIK such threats to ships or installations is an in-port hazard and is spearheaded by strong Intelligence led analysis covering threat levels from improvised devices including RCIED. It is the duty of ships divers to examine ships hulls , while in port , for foreign attachments. The ship itself is not a counter IED vessel but it's specialists may get involved as outlined in searches. Basically any ship can be tasked to check for IED's if it has the divers with relevant expertise.

  9. #432
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    Normally the unit will transit to the port by road and bring a rib etc. The depths in a port allow for cylinder diving.

  10. #433
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    MOD: Moved to CPV thread

    Ok moved here as we are discussing the reported additional 2 new OPVs being used to replace the CPVs.

    Dedicated MCMVs are too small for all weather use even in coastal waters and too slow to be effective CPVs. They may also be too expensive considering how often they are likely to be used in role

    The CPV designs out there are generally too small, too deep draft (if we are going for being able to put into small ports around the country (including to seek shelter), can't carry the TEUs.

    So just go OPVs with CD and ROV etc capabilities?

  11. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    [COLOR="#FF0000"]MOD:

    So just go OPVs with CD and ROV etc capabilities?
    An ETV which has lots of deck space for TEU's, DPS , can make 17kts can equally fulfill the role and has added utility.

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  13. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    MOD: Moved to CPV thread

    Ok moved here as we are discussing the reported additional 2 new OPVs being used to replace the CPVs.

    Dedicated MCMVs are too small for all weather use even in coastal waters and too slow to be effective CPVs. They may also be too expensive considering how often they are likely to be used in role

    The CPV designs out there are generally too small, too deep draft (if we are going for being able to put into small ports around the country (including to seek shelter), can't carry the TEUs.

    So just go OPVs with CD and ROV etc capabilities?
    We need to be careful about ship types and designs. All ships have an almost critical relationship between Length. breadth, draft, freeboard, and Block Coefficient for their stability, speed, cost, and power required to reach designed speed. Reduction in draft will always limit a ships operability and usefulness in rough seas and heavy weather. The CPV draft of 2.72m is quite shallow and that of the new ships is shallower than the Corvettes, Deirdre class, and P31. Draft will determine how you are likely to perform in big sea environments. It is one of the reasons "big" Navies don't fully reveal displacements of their ships. Generally shallow drafters will be going into survival mode in Force 9 and above, and all tend to have low freeboard.

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  15. #436
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    does this mean the newer vessels are in fact LESS effective in the worst weather the atlantic can throw at us?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  16. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    does this mean the newer vessels are in fact LESS effective in the worst weather the atlantic can throw at us?
    Given the modern stability systems they have I'd be surprised if they were to be honest.

  17. #438
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    I couldn't possibly confirm that, as Father Jack said it's an ecumenical matter! The 2007 Danish Knud Rasmussen class have a draft of 4.9m and crossed the Atlantic to Canada and Greenland. However their top speed is 17kts and fitted with Helos, guns, missiles, impact torpedoes.

  18. #439
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    Stabiliser systems are an aid to diminishing amount of roll. They are effective above a planned speed through the water. They do not make a ship more stable which is the bailiwick of the Naval architects and certain loading factors.

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  20. #440
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    CoG.

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  22. #441
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    Yes, along with Trim and the position of that CoG.

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  24. #442
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    I see this morning ILS Granuaile moving into position to assist in the recovery of R116. The media is paying special attention to her 20 tonne crane, which they suggest will be used to lift wreckage, if found.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0319/860...ue-116-search/
    However they miss a more useful tool this ship has, and one which no current NS vessel is equipped with. Dynamic Positioning. The ability to provide a stable platform for diving operations. The Naval diving unit has come a long way since its inception in the 70s, doing so mostly against the wishes of the Military authorities. They provide the first line of defence as such, in diving at sea. The Garda unit providing similar ashore.
    The latest additions to the fleet are provided with 3 TEU spots, and power outlets, to support diving and other operations.
    But to do so they either must remain in motion or go to anchor. Going to anchor in places where this type of operation takes place is not always a practical option, so again you are forced to take to RhIB, and travel, with equipment to the dive location.
    A properly equipped DP vessel will allow a stable working platform for the diving unit, and their equipment, and would permit expansion of the unit to enable them to carry out diving at greater depths. It could operate as such in all but the roughest of conditions, remaining in place over a specific point, to within a very small envelope.
    Currently their air diving capability is down to 50m. However their ROV can operate down to 1000m.

    Modern mine countermeasures vessels also employ dynamic positioning.

    Katanpaa Class Mine countermeasures DP equipped vessel.

    FGS Rottweil Dive support vessel.
    http://www.military.ie/naval-service...iving-section/
    A DP equipped vessel could also then carry out normal patrolling when not engaged in diving operations.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  26. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I see this morning ILS Granuaile moving into position to assist in the recovery of R116. The media is paying special attention to her 20 tonne crane, which they suggest will be used to lift wreckage, if found.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0319/860...ue-116-search/
    However they miss a more useful tool this ship has, and one which no current NS vessel is equipped with. Dynamic Positioning. The ability to provide a stable platform for diving operations. The Naval diving unit has come a long way since its inception in the 70s, doing so mostly against the wishes of the Military authorities. They provide the first line of defence as such, in diving at sea. The Garda unit providing similar ashore.
    The latest additions to the fleet are provided with 3 TEU spots, and power outlets, to support diving and other operations.
    But to do so they either must remain in motion or go to anchor. Going to anchor in places where this type of operation takes place is not always a practical option, so again you are forced to take to RhIB, and travel, with equipment to the dive location.
    A properly equipped DP vessel will allow a stable working platform for the diving unit, and their equipment, and would permit expansion of the unit to enable them to carry out diving at greater depths. It could operate as such in all but the roughest of conditions, remaining in place over a specific point, to within a very small envelope.
    Currently their air diving capability is down to 50m. However their ROV can operate down to 1000m.

    A DP equipped vessel could also then carry out normal patrolling when not engaged in diving operations.
    Thought the P60's are equipped with Dynamic Positioning systems?

  27. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Thought the P60's are equipped with Dynamic Positioning systems?
    So did I, great play was made at the time of the P60's , so equipped, to be able to recover black boxes etc.

  28. #445
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    The New Zealand Navy uses an 85-metre (279 ft) version of the Vard Marine Inc. OPV design referred to as the Protector-class offshore patrol vessel. This is a modified version of the older Irish Navy Róisín-class PV80 vessels with helideck and hangar incorporated.[13]

    The new ships are designed to carry remotely operated submersibles and a decompression chamber for divers. This is intended to add enhanced capabilities to undertake search and rescue, search and recovery, under sea exploration and increased sea area surveillance. The expanded deck area would also allow the Navy to deploy unmanned surveillance planes for the first time. Features also include Dynamic Positioning systems and "Power Take In Systems" to enable fuel savings as the main engines can be shut down and power sourced from battery storage or a smaller more economical engine.[14]

    The first new ship was commissioned on 17 May 2014 - to replace Emer which was decommissioned on 20 September 2013.

  29. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Thought the P60's are equipped with Dynamic Positioning systems?
    They are! both rudders can move independently and in opposite directions. This coupled with the bow thruster keeps the 60class vessels on point, just mark your position and the computer does the rest.

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  31. #447
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    Does anyone know is it DP class 1, 2 or 3?
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  32. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    A properly equipped DP vessel will allow a stable working platform for the diving unit, and their equipment, and would permit expansion of the unit to enable them to carry out diving at greater depths. It could operate as such in all but the roughest of conditions, remaining in place over a specific point, to within a very small envelope.
    Currently their air diving capability is down to 50m. However their ROV can operate down to 1000m.
    In fairness, I wouldn't go below 50 metres with air either, after that it's time to reduce the oxygen content to keep the partial pressure oxygen below 1.4, though I suppose military divers might take a greater risk. That depth limit implies to me that there is no facility to blend gases on ship?

  33. #449
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    Dont know for sure. My guess is it would not be more than DP2 but more likely a basic system. Such systems will accept conditions at low wind speeds but as wind increases holding a ship in a required position starts to eat up available electrical load. Granuaile is probably DP2 or above as their Lighthouse refueling , close to rocks ,needs a guaranteed maintenance of position.
    Diving has to be left to the divers, some are/is Clearance Diver trained to 200 meters. We will wait and see with accent on the recovery of the aircraft and hopefully the occupants.

  34. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    In fairness, I wouldn't go below 50 metres with air either, after that it's time to reduce the oxygen content to keep the partial pressure oxygen below 1.4, though I suppose military divers might take a greater risk. That depth limit implies to me that there is no facility to blend gases on ship?
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Dont know for sure. My guess is it would not be more than DP2 but more likely a basic system. Such systems will accept conditions at low wind speeds but as wind increases holding a ship in a required position starts to eat up available electrical load. Granuaile is probably DP2 or above as their Lighthouse refueling , close to rocks ,needs a guaranteed maintenance of position.
    Diving has to be left to the divers, some are/is Clearance Diver trained to 200 meters. We will wait and see with accent on the recovery of the aircraft and hopefully the occupants.
    DP 2 or 3 was a requirement in the P60 specs (not sure if that what was delivered)

    Granuaile has DP1

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