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View Poll Results: (Realistically) What best to replace the Peacock CPVs with?

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  • Like for like (a similarly capable CPV)

    19 31.15%
  • 1-2 x OPVs (2 defending on available funds)

    39 63.93%
  • Larger number of much less capable patrol craft)

    3 4.92%
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Thread: CPV Replacement

  1. #76
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    If the Peacocks were replaced with something smaller than the Becketts would there be an advantage in buying a related design? http://www.stxmarine.net/pdf/PV62-br-web.pdf
    Could well be but only has 10 days endurance (otherwise good contender. PV55 could be good too but slower (25.5 kts) but has 21 day endurance.


    http://www.stxmarine.net/pdf/PV55_brochure.pdf

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlywind View Post
    Foynes is on the west coast, an hour and a half steaming from open water. A two hour road trip from HQ in Haulbowline. It is accessible 24 hours a day for vessels of the NS size. It has ample Fresh Water and Fuel available in port as well as victualing supplies. A secure area in harbour could be available for leasing as a secure pound if required. Logistically, at times, it would make sense for west coast ship replenishment rather than added steaming to Cork Harbour.
    Have you driven to Foynes from Dublin lately? Its a backwater. Haulbowline is on a National route, soon to be linked by motorway to the N8 Cork-Dublin road. WHat would be the advantage? Why lease when we already own a large property that could be developed further? If Foynes was suitable is it not surprising that the British Imperial Navy never considered it worthwhile?

    Do you just not like Cork?

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  5. #78
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    Silly place to put a city.

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  7. #79
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    There are worse places people have put them.

  8. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenji View Post
    I think the decision to be made here is really about getting rid of the CPV 's. They have not really moved much in the last year due to various reasons. With one decommissioned ship out of 8 in total, no sign of the new arriving any time soon and the cpv's parked up, it would make you wonder why we need 8 in the first place. Can't see why is is acceptable to have such a small number of ships at sea at any one time
    If they are still operable, we should continue using them until their due date for decommissioning. If they are to be replaced I would recommend ships capable of operating independently. Don't go less than 1000 tonnes on a draft of 3.75/4.0 meters. Don't hang up on speed-maybe 20knots with a range around 4500nm. They need range to visit our European neighbors and even further afield. Forget the Shannon estuary,in adverse weather it is a difficult climb out, especially over the bar. They would in effect be no smaller than Aisling but better suited to modern defence systems.

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  10. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenji View Post
    I am all for the NS getting new ships but these damen ships are fairly ugly. Not as sleek as the current class of ship being delivered. Surely the new drones can venture in where the P60's can't. Bigger is better
    I don't understand why ''ugly'' should be a problem, Corvettes, LST's, most escort carriers, were as ugly as a hangover, didn't effect their usefulness....
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  12. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If they are still operable, we should continue using them until their due date for decommissioning. If they are to be replaced I would recommend ships capable of operating independently. Don't go less than 1000 tonnes on a draft of 3.75/4.0 meters. Don't hang up on speed-maybe 20knots with a range around 4500nm. They need range to visit our European neighbors and even further afield. Forget the Shannon estuary,in adverse weather it is a difficult climb out, especially over the bar. They would in effect be no smaller than Aisling but better suited to modern defence systems.
    What ship though.

    There doesn't seem to be one that ticks all the boxes.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  14. #83
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    Don't go less than 1000 tonnes on a draft of 3.75/4.0 meters. Don't hang up on speed-maybe 20knots with a range around 4500nm.
    SOunds good. Rules out a lot of the usual suspects. No Fassmer OPV . Aussie Cape Class is in there, its an improvement on the Armidale, but similar to the Damen type CPV too. 57.8m LOA, Beam 10m, Draft 3m. 4600nm at 12kn, Max speed 25kn.
    What about Knud Rasmussen? It has a helipad (on an impossibly short deck). 61m on the waterline. 14.6m Beam. Draft 4.9m. Denmark currently building a third, at US$91m. Ice resistant too, should climate change begin to become a more serious issue.
    Pug Ugly though.


    However, what about the Italian Dicotti class, which has been fishing out Refugees from the Med and Adriatic for many years now.
    53m LOA. 8.1m Beam. 5.4m Draft. 23Kn Max. 2100NM Range at 16kn. Malta soon getting one, when it is fed up with Aoife.

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  16. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If they are still operable, we should continue using them until their due date for decommissioning. If they are to be replaced I would recommend ships capable of operating independently. Don't go less than 1000 tonnes on a draft of 3.75/4.0 meters. Don't hang up on speed-maybe 20knots with a range around 4500nm. They need range to visit our European neighbors and even further afield. Forget the Shannon estuary,in adverse weather it is a difficult climb out, especially over the bar. They would in effect be no smaller than Aisling but better suited to modern defence systems.
    I'm not suggesting going and replacing them now. They are due to be retired in 2023, allow 5 years for tender & build and it will sneak up very quickly.

    Even more so considering that Eithne is due to retire in 2019. The NS should be looking at that now and thinking about the plan.

    For example:
    Is Eithne to be replaced? With an OPV? Or an EPV?
    If an EPV, make sure that there is an option so the 2 CPVs could be replaced by a single additional EPV
    If an OPV, the new contract include options for up to a further 2 (so the CPVs could be replaced either one-for-one or a single OPV

    If you are looking at up to 4 metre draft there is a fair few smaller ports you won't get into and your limiting where you can go (eg using terrain to mask your presence while awaiting a drug runner). Speed is important (if you want to get out of the weather, catch a vessel trying to get away or respond to a SAR incident) but I would say min 20 kts (but the higher the better).

  17. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    SOunds good. Rules out a lot of the usual suspects. No Fassmer OPV . Aussie Cape Class is in there, its an improvement on the Armidale, but similar to the Damen type CPV too. 57.8m LOA, Beam 10m, Draft 3m. 4600nm at 12kn, Max speed 25kn.
    What about Knud Rasmussen? It has a helipad (on an impossibly short deck). 61m on the waterline. 14.6m Beam. Draft 4.9m. Denmark currently building a third, at US$91m. Ice resistant too, should climate change begin to become a more serious issue.
    Pug Ugly though.


    However, what about the Italian Dicotti class, which has been fishing out Refugees from the Med and Adriatic for many years now.
    53m LOA. 8.1m Beam. 5.4m Draft. 23Kn Max. 2100NM Range at 16kn. Malta soon getting one, when it is fed up with Aoife.
    Wonder how much it would be without the ice strengthening (we could get 1.5 OPVs for that price (but probably more capable))?

    The draft of the Italian ship is deeper than an existing NS vessel!

  18. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Have you driven to Foynes from Dublin lately? Its a backwater. Haulbowline is on a National route, soon to be linked by motorway to the N8 Cork-Dublin road. WHat would be the advantage? Why lease when we already own a large property that could be developed further? If Foynes was suitable is it not surprising that the British Imperial Navy never considered it worthwhile?

    Do you just not like Cork?
    Limerick county council is in the process of providing a motorway link from the m20 / m21 to foynes port due to the fact that it is one of three eu designated Euroports in the country. This road will be similar to the pending commencement of the n28 cork to ringaskiddy port due to start early in 2016. This n28 upgrade will result in 3 years of commuter misery for those of us working on haul bowline island. A second base maybe of some short term use

  19. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    SOunds good. Rules out a lot of the usual suspects. No Fassmer OPV . Aussie Cape Class is in there, its an improvement on the Armidale, but similar to the Damen type CPV too. 57.8m LOA, Beam 10m, Draft 3m. 4600nm at 12kn, Max speed 25kn.
    What about Knud Rasmussen? It has a helipad (on an impossibly short deck). 61m on the waterline. 14.6m Beam. Draft 4.9m. Denmark currently building a third, at US$91m. Ice resistant too, should climate change begin to become a more serious issue.
    Pug Ugly though.


    However, what about the Italian Dicotti class, which has been fishing out Refugees from the Med and Adriatic for many years now.
    53m LOA. 8.1m Beam. 5.4m Draft. 23Kn Max. 2100NM Range at 16kn. Malta soon getting one, when it is fed up with Aoife.
    Ironically a basic Flyvefisken (replaced in many roles by Rasmussen) would probably have fulfilled the role nicely...
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  20. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenji View Post
    Limerick county council is in the process of providing a motorway link from the m20 / m21 to foynes port due to the fact that it is one of three eu designated Euroports in the country. This road will be similar to the pending commencement of the n28 cork to ringaskiddy port due to start early in 2016. This n28 upgrade will result in 3 years of commuter misery for those of us working on haul bowline island. A second base maybe of some short term use
    So you would prefer to move to Foynes while they build a new N28? (New road, not widening current route)

  21. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    So you would prefer to move to Foynes while they build a new N28? (New road, not widening current route)
    Just think that a second location maybe of some use. The route for the N28 is on the existing alignment from the south ring road to Shannon park roundabout which is going to make the traffic situation even worse than normal which in itself is really bad. The port of foynes is about to undergo huge expansion to its current docking facilities.

  22. #90
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    we should just get 2 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers to patrol the atlantic and scare off the bears... would prob need a little bit of work done to haulbowline though and to quadruple the size of the navy!
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  24. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenji View Post
    Just think that a second location maybe of some use. The route for the N28 is on the existing alignment from the south ring road to Shannon park roundabout which is going to make the traffic situation even worse than normal which in itself is really bad. The port of foynes is about to undergo huge expansion to its current docking facilities.
    Not really. They have a masterplan for expansion, up to 2041. Read this. http://www.sfpc.ie/download/SFPC%20M...AN%20Final.pdf

  25. #92
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I would suggest these as requirement for any new CPV:
    Draft <= 3 metres (Peacocks 2.7 m)
    Max Speed >= 25 kts (Peacocks 25-30 kts)
    Cruise Speed 15-17 kts (OPV RFP 16 kts / Peacocks 17 kts)
    Loiter Speed 0-8 kts (same as OPV RFP)
    Range 2500-3000 nm (OPV RFP 6000 nm / Peacocks 2500 nm)
    Endurance 21 days (same as Peacocks)
    Min 2 shafts (redundancy)
    Diesel / Diesel Electric / DE Hybrid (same as OPV RFP)
    Stowage of 1-2 TEUs (diving support etc)
    2 x RHIBs on davitts (commonality)

    Weapons - 76mm / 20mm main armament (commonality)

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  27. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I would suggest these as requirement for any new CPV:
    Draft <= 3 metres (Peacocks 2.7 m)
    Max Speed >= 25 kts (Peacocks 25-30 kts)
    Cruise Speed 15-17 kts (OPV RFP 16 kts / Peacocks 17 kts)
    Loiter Speed 0-8 kts (same as OPV RFP)
    Range 2500-3000 nm (OPV RFP 6000 nm / Peacocks 2500 nm)
    Endurance 21 days (same as Peacocks)
    Min 2 shafts (redundancy)
    Diesel / Diesel Electric / DE Hybrid (same as OPV RFP)
    Stowage of 1-2 TEUs (diving support etc)
    2 x RHIBs on davitts (commonality)

    Weapons - 76mm / 20mm main armament (commonality)
    capability to operate drones
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  29. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    capability to be operated by drones
    Think to the future morpheus - Cloud - Convergence - Innovation - Synergy etc etc
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  31. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    capability to operate drones
    Looking at what is available in OPV type vessels , out of eight types in operation, we are list as operating 3 types eg. Emer class, Roisin class, and Eithne Class, to that you can add Beckett class. We would seem to be the experts. Our difficulty is how to replace two CPV's gifted to us by Maggie Thatcher. Anything selectable is in embryonic development. Any built are restricted in range and endurance. The Danish P570 is a deep vessel at 4.9 meter draft. They are built to an Ice strengthened spec. and may come out lighter if to normal hull strength. My own choice in new design is the Fassmer 80 or the Damen 1400 with flight deck for drones only or a friendly land on in calm weather. The four engines in the later gives economy running on two.

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  33. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    Think to the future morpheus - Cloud - Convergence - Innovation - Synergy etc etc
    Is someone playing Buzzword Bingo?
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  35. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    SOunds good. Rules out a lot of the usual suspects. No Fassmer OPV . Aussie Cape Class is in there, its an improvement on the Armidale, but similar to the Damen type CPV too. 57.8m LOA, Beam 10m, Draft 3m. 4600nm at 12kn, Max speed 25kn.
    What about Knud Rasmussen? It has a helipad (on an impossibly short deck). 61m on the waterline. 14.6m Beam. Draft 4.9m. Denmark currently building a third, at US$91m. Ice resistant too, should climate change begin to become a more serious issue.
    Pug Ugly though.


    However, what about the Italian Dicotti class, which has been fishing out Refugees from the Med and Adriatic for many years now.
    53m LOA. 8.1m Beam. 5.4m Draft. 23Kn Max. 2100NM Range at 16kn. Malta soon getting one, when it is fed up with Aoife.
    Errrm... actually we have one already (10 odd years now) and no plans to get another! Thankfully your draft figures are a wee bit off otherwise I would have been hard aground on various occasions. Full load draft is actually around 2.2 metres.

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  37. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medsailor View Post
    Errrm... actually we have one already (10 odd years now) and no plans to get another! Thankfully your draft figures are a wee bit off otherwise I would have been hard aground on various occasions. Full load draft is actually around 2.2 metres.
    I think the incorrect draught figure comes from a misunderstanding of the dimensions given on http://www.afm.gov.mt/p61 which then made its way to the Wikipedia article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diciot..._patrol_vessel. You might want to update the Wikipedia article or, if you have a source I can cite, I'll do it.

    Off topic I suppose but do you know if the AFM have any idea what they might want as the new patrol vessel they are hoping to buy with EU funds? Maybe Ireland and Malta could buy 3 CPV types (2+1) and get a discount? The Damen 5509/P580 class might serve both countries needs.

  38. #99
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    How about this as an option, not really covered by the pool options.

    Build EPVs. (at least 2) Include in their spec an option to operate daughter craft of a type larger than any RIBs currently in use. Say something capable of operating independently for 24 hours?

    EPV on patrol on west coast. Drops off daughter craft in inshore areas to carry out coastal work. Daughter craft does salmon patrol work. When complete, rendezvous with EPV and continue EEZ patrol.

    Sure nobody is doing similar at the moment. But in 1973 nobody else had purpose built offshore patrol vessels either working in the eastern atlantic. Now everyone is at it.

    The Irish NS has enough experience of small boat boarding ops in challenging conditions and EEZ patrolling to know exactly what it wants. Prove the concept and the designer could flog the idea to many other coastal nations with similar challenges to our own.

    Because it seems that the CPV option is too limiting.

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  40. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    How about this as an option, not really covered by the pool options.

    Build EPVs. (at least 2) Include in their spec an option to operate daughter craft of a type larger than any RIBs currently in use. Say something capable of operating independently for 24 hours?

    EPV on patrol on west coast. Drops off daughter craft in inshore areas to carry out coastal work. Daughter craft does salmon patrol work. When complete, rendezvous with EPV and continue EEZ patrol.

    Sure nobody is doing similar at the moment. But in 1973 nobody else had purpose built offshore patrol vessels either working in the eastern atlantic. Now everyone is at it.

    The Irish NS has enough experience of small boat boarding ops in challenging conditions and EEZ patrolling to know exactly what it wants. Prove the concept and the designer could flog the idea to many other coastal nations with similar challenges to our own.

    Because it seems that the CPV option is too limiting.

    I see someone has been thinking about how to incorporate Safehaven's stealth boat into the NS

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