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  1. #1
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Suggesting a new Cav ORBAT

    If the figures we have on the thread are correct:

    We got 9 x CRV (armed with RWS (12.7/40mm) and 6 x MRV (armed with 30mm) for a budgeted €25m

    Should the Cav (as resources become available) be equipped with a combination of CRVs and MRVs (possibly if a few LTAVs as well)? They are well suited IMHO to the declared role of light armoured combat support resource. For another approx €25m we could fully equip the PDF Cav elements with CRVs and MRVs and have a few spares.

    Then you have the DE element (which could increase Cav establishment) suitably equipped and trained (with the likely of GSR, 84mm and/or Javelin, snipers etc. You then have an ISTAR Coy per Bde.

    Question is do we want to maintain the armoured combat resource of 1ACS? So do we want to replace the Scorpion or just remove the capability? But on the other side you have much better equipped and capable Cav Sqns.
    Last edited by DeV; 25th March 2015 at 12:10.

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    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    With the numbers quoted you have almost one full strenght squadron, so to give the second brigade an equal squadron you need to replicate that equipment 1 ACS has.

    Or do you have one fully equiped squadron maintained as a sperate entity from the brigades but deployable with either with enough kit to have a deployed overseas element as well as that retained at home?
    Time for another break I think......

  4. #3
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Or just spend 25m on parts upgrades and resets so the whole fleet is actually running.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  5. #4
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    With the numbers quoted you have almost one full strenght squadron, so to give the second brigade an equal squadron you need to replicate that equipment 1 ACS has.

    Or do you have one fully equiped squadron maintained as a sperate entity from the brigades but deployable with either with enough kit to have a deployed overseas element as well as that retained at home?
    What I meant was transfer all the existing MRVs and CRVs from 1ACS to the Cav Sqns and place a similar (or slightly reduced) order for another 9 x CRVs and 6 x MRVs. That would mean 2 troops of CRVs and 1 troop of MRVs per Sqn (say another troop in LTAV), leaving 2 x CRVs and 4 x MRVs spare for overseas, Cav Sch etc. The question is then do you keep 1ACS (and if you do what do you equip them with)?

    Alternatively, place the same order. Giving 2 troops of CRVs per Sqn (remainder in LTAV and soft skinned vehicles) and then you have 12 x MRVs for 1ACS.

    Personally I like what the MRV has to offer in terms of extra support to a Cav Sqn (and it doesn't mean Cav still have soft skinned vehicles in Recce Tps).

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  7. #5
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    Or just spend 25m on parts upgrades and resets so the whole fleet is actually running.
    That too!

  8. #6
    Sergeant madmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    What I meant was transfer all the existing MRVs and CRVs from 1ACS to the Cav Sqns and place a similar (or slightly reduced) order for another 9 x CRVs and 6 x MRVs. That would mean 2 troops of CRVs and 1 troop of MRVs per Sqn (say another troop in LTAV), leaving 2 x CRVs and 4 x MRVs spare for overseas, Cav Sch etc. The question is then do you keep 1ACS (and if you do what do you equip them with)?

    Alternatively, place the same order. Giving 2 troops of CRVs per Sqn (remainder in LTAV and soft skinned vehicles) and then you have 12 x MRVs for 1ACS.

    Personally I like what the MRV has to offer in terms of extra support to a Cav Sqn (and it doesn't mean Cav still have soft skinned vehicles in Recce Tps).
    or they could just upgrade older INF mowags to CRV oh wait thats what they are doing
    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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  10. #7
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmark View Post
    or they could just upgrade older INF mowags to CRV oh wait thats what they are doing
    IMHO no. Why?
    Because we don't have enough for the infantry as it is!

  11. #8
    Brigadier General
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    The current system of having armour managed by single units for each vehicle type in one location works well, then deploying what's needed, where its needed and when its needed.
    With all the barrack closers in recent years most remaining barracks are literally bursting at the seams so there is no space to built the facilities needed to house a fleet of Mowags if the fleet was split between individual units.

    Its very unlikely funding will be provided to purchased anymore Mowags for the fleet to be brought up to the planned full strength. Concentration is now on upgrading and modernising.

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  13. #9
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    You are correct but we still don't have enough for a Bn overseas

  14. #10
    C/S FMP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    If the figures we have on the thread are correct:

    We got 9 x CRV (armed with RWS (12.7/40mm) and 6 x MRV (armed with 30mm)

    Should the Cav (as resources become available) be equipped with a combination of CRVs and MRVs (possibly if a few LTAVs as well)? They are well suited IMHO to the declared role of light armoured combat support resource. For another approx €25m we could fully equip the PDF Cav elements with CRVs and MRVs and have a few spares.

    Then you have the DE element (which could increase Cav establishment) suitably equipped and trained (with the likely of GSR, 84mm and/or Javelin, snipers etc. You then have an ISTAR Coy per Bde.

    Question is do we want to maintain the armoured combat resource of 1ACS? So do we want to replace the Scorpion or just remove the capability? But on the other side you have much better equipped and capable Cav Sqns.
    DeV, like your thinking. Last year I was going to / did touch on this with the intention of elaborating. Got a bit busy and waylaid but you have stoked the fires again with your post. Plus I'm home on leave and have some time to kill (single again). BTW I'm off to Clare tomorrow via Rosslare, visit some of the tribe for a week, beers anyone?

    Right, back to the point.

    Firstly: CVRT. Get rid!!! Now!! Do not spend another penny on them. The only capability you will lose is "How to fit a thrown track". End of. A complete drain on resources and all resources should go to your fleet of LTAV's and the PIII's. Which should, all be Cav assets. Will elaborate further later. Have an ORBAT brewing in my head. LOVE ORBAT's!!!! No cloud cuckoo land stuff, just using what you actually have and looking at the role played by armored formations.

    Secondly: I need some numbers validated and a few questions answered. According to various sources you should have the following in your inventory:

    LTAV:

    Standard (STD): 15 (With RWS)
    Surveillance & Target Acquisition (STA): 4
    Intelligence/Surveillance/Reconnaissance (ISR): 6 (With RWS)
    Communications and Information Services (CIS): 2

    Source: http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...highlight=latv

    Crying shame phase 2 & 3 were not realised. Or were they? Changes everything if the were!

    PIII:

    APC: 54
    Command: 8
    Ambo: 2
    Fitter: 1
    MRV: 6
    CRV: 9

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_...the_Irish_Army

    In regards to the LTAV, something from the original tender seems to have changed. The number of vehicles with RWS. Can someone confirm / deny this? Also various questions and confirmation of which is which ........

    The STD variant, 15 off in 12.7 & 40?



    The STA variant, 4 off. Why are they not armed? Don't say because of the mast please.



    The CIS variant (lead vehicle), 2 off, again why not armed? See above mast comment.



    The ISR variant (process of elimination), 6 off. So question here is, what happened to the RWS from the initial tender / specs?



    Cheers for now and will get back to you on this. For the time being no comments about Cavalry V's Infantry etc. etc. please. That's not what this is about.

    Leave ones loyalties at the door and lets have a serious look at uitilising what the DF have to the the best of its ability in armored formations / brigade assets.

    ORBAT's to follow once numbers etc. confirmed.
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  15. #11
    BQMS spider pig's Avatar
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    A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs
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  17. #12
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    You got your LTAV pictures mixed up FMP the top picture is the ISR variant.Operated by the Cav.The bottom picture is the standard Infantry car.Only Cav ISR LTAVS have the RWS and draeger overpressure system for CBRN recce.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  19. #13
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider pig View Post
    A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs
    Is there a plan to replace the infantry cars in the future?
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  20. #14
    C/S FMP's Avatar
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    Cheers for that apod. So does that mean the Standard variants are now all carrying turrets with 7.62 (15 off)? That's quiet a change from the DoD document posted on here.
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  21. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider pig View Post
    A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs
    Actually all the APCs are going to be modernised with the RWS between now and 2019.

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  23. #16
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    MOD: use publicly available info only

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  25. #17
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If we look how our nearest neighbour ORBAT for a Armd Recce Sqn (nearest equivalent to a Cav Sqn):

    HQ Tp (2xSultan, 2xSamitarian)
    3 x Recce Tp (each with 4xScimitar)
    GW Tp (4xStriker)
    Sp Tp (4xSpartan)
    Mech Section (Spartan & Spartan)

    Broadly speaking a Cav Sqn would be similar.

    So ideally, Cav Sqn
    HQ Tp with LTAVs
    3 x Recce Tp (each with 4xCRV or 2xCRV & 2xLTAV or 2xCRV Recce Tp & 1xLTAV Recce Tp)
    Sp Tp (4xMRV & 1xFitter vehicle)

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  27. #18
    C/S FMP's Avatar
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    That's exactly where my thoughts lay.

    With the Armd Recce Sqn providing Brigade level Cav recce element, but also looking at higher formation supporting elements (Division level if you will, combination of the two Brigades). Maneuver Sqn's with organic fire and recce support etc. etc. Just giggling numbers and what not at the moment. Looking at tasks and what ideally would be required to complete those tasks with what you have to hand. Pretty well used everything up actually, and not just for the sake of it. Will work on it as the evening goes on.

    Keeping the gray matter occupied.
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  28. #19
    C/S FMP's Avatar
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    Brigade level first. Don't forget gents this is just me exercising my gray matter, (ORBAT's! My version of counting sheep).

    There is a few years of "doing it" behind the train of thought though so its not all a result of sleep deprivation .

    What is this Cav Sqn going to do? In a nutshell ISTAR! Now for a name, I'm going with Brigade Reconnaissance Force (Go with what you know ).

    The Brigade Reconnaissance Force (BRF). A squadron sized unit, using protected vehicles to identify and if necessary strike hostile elements, through organic means (e.g. ATGW and Mortars) and non organic means (e.g. Brigade level Artillery gun lines and Infantry mortar lines) "target acquisition". The basic task of the BRF is to obtain accurate information through surveillance and reconnaissance about the enemy and develop an intelligence picture in their areas of responsibility for their senior commander (Brigade Commander), in order to allow him to make informed decisions and task assets accordingly. In a defensive scenario they are to identify the direction and strength of the enemy thrusts, impose maximum delay and damage to the enemy's reconnaissance forces, while allowing main forces to maneuver to combat the threat. The other element to this "New Cav Corps" and will cover it later.

    Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, Reconnaissance. Their bread and butter. What is required in order to achieve this is the grouping together of asset capable (ISR / STA) vehicles to allow the various ISTAR elements to combine. Both Brigades to have identical Sqn's.

    BRF ORBAT:

    A Troop:
    1 x LATV ISR
    1 x LATV STA
    2 x LATV STD (ATGW)

    B Troop:
    1 x LATV ISR
    1 x LATV STA
    2 x LATV STD (ATGW)

    C Troop:
    4 x PIII APC
    16 x Dismounts (OP's, CTR's, Snipers, FP etc.)

    SP Troop:
    2 x LATV STD (ATGW)
    2 x PIII APC (81 mm Mortars)

    HQ Troop:
    1 x LATV CIS
    1 x LATV ISR (2 i/c)
    1 x PIII CV (OC Sqn)
    1 x PIII APC (SSM)

    Q Troop:
    B Vehicles (Diesel, oils, lube, water, rats, ammo etc.)
    Soft skin fitter section and wrecker. Same for Ambo (Not enough of the required type of PIII's)

    Total numbers of armoured vehicles used across both Brigades in the two Sqn's:

    6 x LATV Intelligence / Surveillance / Reconnaissance (ISR).
    4 x LATV Surveillance & Target Acquisition (STA).
    12 x LATV Standard (STD).
    2 x LATV Communications & Information Services (CIS).
    2 x PIII Command Vehicle (CV).
    14 x PIII Armoured Personnel Carrier (APC).

    By way of a p.s.

    1. The LATV STD was unfortunately not fitted with RWS as was the original plan. That leaves the 2 x ISTAR troops (A & B Troop) a little light on firepower. But their role is to gather Int covertly and pass it up the chain. Call in FIRES when required and they still have the capability to destroy Armour etc. via Javelin ATGW. All without getting too up close and personal with the enemy.

    2. The mortar section consists of only 2 x tubes so mass fire missions will not be the order of the day but they are obviously capable of putting HE on an advancing enemy. Illum and Smoke will be their primary missions, Illum over the FEBA in support of the main force night time advance to contact for example. Smoke screening and / or HE in support of the ISTAR troop etc. as they withdraw from contact.

    3. I'm guessing there will be lots of "where are the CRV's and MRV's?" Have not forgotten about them and they have their part to play within the "Main (Cav) force". Recce as opposed to ISTAR which is of course their role. You could of course add a CRV troop to the above and a Maneuver Sqn, but all that can be discussed later. Want to give you the basic overall "New Cav Corps" layout before that. Once its there, flexibility and the ability to adapt to various mission profiles becomes clearer. You just need your conventional war type ORBAT in place first.
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  30. #20
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    What Main Force? Everybody's too busy ISTAR-ing away like mad to be doing grunt work. No mention of truck or jeep/pajero/4x4 numbers or the 120mm mortar...

  31. #21
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Can we be realistic with numbers as well?

    4 MOWAGs in C Tp to carry 16 dismounts? They will fit in 2, how many do we have again?

    LTAVs were purchased for inf, Cav, arty and engr
    Last edited by DeV; 31st March 2015 at 18:33.

  32. #22
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  33. #23
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Can we be realistic with numbers as well?

    4 MOWAGs in C Tp to carry 16 dismounts? They will fit in 2, how many do we have again?

    LTAVs were purchased for inf, Cav, arty and engr
    CIS. Not Engineers.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  35. #24
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    SP Troop:
    2 x LATV STD (ATGW)
    2 x PIII APC (81 mm Mortars)
    Why would Support Troop not have MRVs as opposed to dismounts with deployable weapons?

    Concept of OPs for Cav was that Support would provide fire support for a recce element and be able to disengage rapidly.

    Support Platoon in an Infantry set up would have the weapons suggested for enhanced ops and for prolonged engagements.

    The full Cavalry squadron in its original format as a Brigade Recce element was quite similar to that you suggest but mortars were an an inbuilt component of AML 60s, a very useful mobile mortar platform, The Armoured section deploying both soft skins armour with Heavy weapons and anti tank capability.

    Redeploy C troop across A and B troops give each troop one MRV with the specialists attached.

    Amalgamate your Q troop back into the HQ troop, redesignate 'A' troop as the 'Recce Troop' and 'B' Troop as Armour.. guess what , your back to where a Cav Squadron should have been from inception.

    The removal of the key vehicles meant the squadrons had to be re aligned to their current setup as there was no vehicle in sight as a replacement for the AML 90 , but as the MRV now fills that role, you could actually be back to square one.

    the major problem in the Irish Army as it always has been , the larger the unit, the more appointments to be maintained and filled. Due to the nature in which troops are deployed overseas and at home on course on duties etc, actually maintaining the unit as per its declared strenght is albeit impossible. The unit as described has too many specialist vacancies and will suffer as a result. If the amount of specialists is kept to a minimum but the require features retained you have some hope of keeping it working.

    The key problem being we have three units declared as being able to do the same role but in effect due to equipment distribution only one could be formed from the units combined.

    Solution. Disband one, and reform the other two using the excess, equip one fully and riate the other through the role say every two years giving time for up skilling, overseas deployments, career course etc.

    Again hypothetical.
    Time for another break I think......

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  37. #25
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Why would Support Troop not have MRVs as opposed to dismounts with deployable weapons?

    Concept of OPs for Cav was that Support would provide fire support for a recce element and be able to disengage rapidly.

    Support Platoon in an Infantry set up would have the weapons suggested for enhanced ops and for prolonged engagements.

    The full Cavalry squadron in its original format as a Brigade Recce element was quite similar to that you suggest but mortars were an an inbuilt component of AML 60s, a very useful mobile mortar platform, The Armoured section deploying both soft skins armour with Heavy weapons and anti tank capability.

    Redeploy C troop across A and B troops give each troop one MRV with the specialists attached.

    Amalgamate your Q troop back into the HQ troop, redesignate 'A' troop as the 'Recce Troop' and 'B' Troop as Armour.. guess what , your back to where a Cav Squadron should have been from inception.

    The removal of the key vehicles meant the squadrons had to be re aligned to their current setup as there was no vehicle in sight as a replacement for the AML 90 , but as the MRV now fills that role, you could actually be back to square one.

    the major problem in the Irish Army as it always has been , the larger the unit, the more appointments to be maintained and filled. Due to the nature in which troops are deployed overseas and at home on course on duties etc, actually maintaining the unit as per its declared strenght is albeit impossible. The unit as described has too many specialist vacancies and will suffer as a result. If the amount of specialists is kept to a minimum but the require features retained you have some hope of keeping it working.

    The key problem being we have three units declared as being able to do the same role but in effect due to equipment distribution only one could be formed from the units combined.

    Solution. Disband one, and reform the other two using the excess, equip one fully and riate the other through the role say every two years giving time for up skilling, overseas deployments, career course etc.

    Again hypothetical.


    +1

    Only comment I would have would be that the 3 recce troops should have the same set up and equipment (as far as possible, budgets being the major issue) so they can all undertake the same tasks.

    What is the DE in the CRV and MRV? 6 and 4 ?

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