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  • Suggesting a new Cav ORBAT

    If the figures we have on the thread are correct:

    We got 9 x CRV (armed with RWS (12.7/40mm) and 6 x MRV (armed with 30mm) for a budgeted €25m

    Should the Cav (as resources become available) be equipped with a combination of CRVs and MRVs (possibly if a few LTAVs as well)? They are well suited IMHO to the declared role of light armoured combat support resource. For another approx €25m we could fully equip the PDF Cav elements with CRVs and MRVs and have a few spares.

    Then you have the DE element (which could increase Cav establishment) suitably equipped and trained (with the likely of GSR, 84mm and/or Javelin, snipers etc. You then have an ISTAR Coy per Bde.

    Question is do we want to maintain the armoured combat resource of 1ACS? So do we want to replace the Scorpion or just remove the capability? But on the other side you have much better equipped and capable Cav Sqns.
    Last edited by DeV; 25 March 2015, 13:10.

  • #2
    With the numbers quoted you have almost one full strenght squadron, so to give the second brigade an equal squadron you need to replicate that equipment 1 ACS has.

    Or do you have one fully equiped squadron maintained as a sperate entity from the brigades but deployable with either with enough kit to have a deployed overseas element as well as that retained at home?
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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    • #3
      Or just spend 25m on parts upgrades and resets so the whole fleet is actually running.
      Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
        With the numbers quoted you have almost one full strenght squadron, so to give the second brigade an equal squadron you need to replicate that equipment 1 ACS has.

        Or do you have one fully equiped squadron maintained as a sperate entity from the brigades but deployable with either with enough kit to have a deployed overseas element as well as that retained at home?
        What I meant was transfer all the existing MRVs and CRVs from 1ACS to the Cav Sqns and place a similar (or slightly reduced) order for another 9 x CRVs and 6 x MRVs. That would mean 2 troops of CRVs and 1 troop of MRVs per Sqn (say another troop in LTAV), leaving 2 x CRVs and 4 x MRVs spare for overseas, Cav Sch etc. The question is then do you keep 1ACS (and if you do what do you equip them with)?

        Alternatively, place the same order. Giving 2 troops of CRVs per Sqn (remainder in LTAV and soft skinned vehicles) and then you have 12 x MRVs for 1ACS.

        Personally I like what the MRV has to offer in terms of extra support to a Cav Sqn (and it doesn't mean Cav still have soft skinned vehicles in Recce Tps).

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
          Or just spend 25m on parts upgrades and resets so the whole fleet is actually running.
          That too!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            What I meant was transfer all the existing MRVs and CRVs from 1ACS to the Cav Sqns and place a similar (or slightly reduced) order for another 9 x CRVs and 6 x MRVs. That would mean 2 troops of CRVs and 1 troop of MRVs per Sqn (say another troop in LTAV), leaving 2 x CRVs and 4 x MRVs spare for overseas, Cav Sch etc. The question is then do you keep 1ACS (and if you do what do you equip them with)?

            Alternatively, place the same order. Giving 2 troops of CRVs per Sqn (remainder in LTAV and soft skinned vehicles) and then you have 12 x MRVs for 1ACS.

            Personally I like what the MRV has to offer in terms of extra support to a Cav Sqn (and it doesn't mean Cav still have soft skinned vehicles in Recce Tps).
            or they could just upgrade older INF mowags to CRV oh wait thats what they are doing
            Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by madmark View Post
              or they could just upgrade older INF mowags to CRV oh wait thats what they are doing
              IMHO no. Why?
              Because we don't have enough for the infantry as it is!

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              • #8
                The current system of having armour managed by single units for each vehicle type in one location works well, then deploying what's needed, where its needed and when its needed.
                With all the barrack closers in recent years most remaining barracks are literally bursting at the seams so there is no space to built the facilities needed to house a fleet of Mowags if the fleet was split between individual units.

                Its very unlikely funding will be provided to purchased anymore Mowags for the fleet to be brought up to the planned full strength. Concentration is now on upgrading and modernising.

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                • #9
                  You are correct but we still don't have enough for a Bn overseas

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    If the figures we have on the thread are correct:

                    We got 9 x CRV (armed with RWS (12.7/40mm) and 6 x MRV (armed with 30mm)

                    Should the Cav (as resources become available) be equipped with a combination of CRVs and MRVs (possibly if a few LTAVs as well)? They are well suited IMHO to the declared role of light armoured combat support resource. For another approx €25m we could fully equip the PDF Cav elements with CRVs and MRVs and have a few spares.

                    Then you have the DE element (which could increase Cav establishment) suitably equipped and trained (with the likely of GSR, 84mm and/or Javelin, snipers etc. You then have an ISTAR Coy per Bde.

                    Question is do we want to maintain the armoured combat resource of 1ACS? So do we want to replace the Scorpion or just remove the capability? But on the other side you have much better equipped and capable Cav Sqns.
                    DeV, like your thinking. Last year I was going to / did touch on this with the intention of elaborating. Got a bit busy and waylaid but you have stoked the fires again with your post. Plus I'm home on leave and have some time to kill (single again). BTW I'm off to Clare tomorrow via Rosslare, visit some of the tribe for a week, beers anyone?

                    Right, back to the point.

                    Firstly: CVRT. Get rid!!! Now!! Do not spend another penny on them. The only capability you will lose is "How to fit a thrown track". End of. A complete drain on resources and all resources should go to your fleet of LTAV's and the PIII's. Which should, all be Cav assets. Will elaborate further later. Have an ORBAT brewing in my head. LOVE ORBAT's!!!! No cloud cuckoo land stuff, just using what you actually have and looking at the role played by armored formations.

                    Secondly: I need some numbers validated and a few questions answered. According to various sources you should have the following in your inventory:

                    LTAV:

                    Standard (STD): 15 (With RWS)
                    Surveillance & Target Acquisition (STA): 4
                    Intelligence/Surveillance/Reconnaissance (ISR): 6 (With RWS)
                    Communications and Information Services (CIS): 2

                    Source: http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...highlight=latv

                    Crying shame phase 2 & 3 were not realised. Or were they? Changes everything if the were!

                    PIII:

                    APC: 54
                    Command: 8
                    Ambo: 2
                    Fitter: 1
                    MRV: 6
                    CRV: 9

                    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_...the_Irish_Army

                    In regards to the LTAV, something from the original tender seems to have changed. The number of vehicles with RWS. Can someone confirm / deny this? Also various questions and confirmation of which is which ........

                    The STD variant, 15 off in 12.7 & 40?



                    The STA variant, 4 off. Why are they not armed? Don't say because of the mast please.



                    The CIS variant (lead vehicle), 2 off, again why not armed? See above mast comment.



                    The ISR variant (process of elimination), 6 off. So question here is, what happened to the RWS from the initial tender / specs?



                    Cheers for now and will get back to you on this. For the time being no comments about Cavalry V's Infantry etc. etc. please. That's not what this is about.

                    Leave ones loyalties at the door and lets have a serious look at uitilising what the DF have to the the best of its ability in armored formations / brigade assets.

                    ORBAT's to follow once numbers etc. confirmed.
                    We travel not for trafficking alone,
                    By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                    For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                    We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

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                    • #11
                      A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs
                      Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

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                      • #12
                        You got your LTAV pictures mixed up FMP the top picture is the ISR variant.Operated by the Cav.The bottom picture is the standard Infantry car.Only Cav ISR LTAVS have the RWS and draeger overpressure system for CBRN recce.
                        "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by spider pig View Post
                          A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs
                          Is there a plan to replace the infantry cars in the future?
                          What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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                          • #14
                            Cheers for that apod. So does that mean the Standard variants are now all carrying turrets with 7.62 (15 off)? That's quiet a change from the DoD document posted on here.
                            We travel not for trafficking alone,
                            By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                            For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                            We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by spider pig View Post
                              A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs
                              Actually all the APCs are going to be modernised with the RWS between now and 2019.

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